Newbie Questions about FI Kart Options

Chris Ross 2

I currently road race a F600 in SCCA and autocross a Lotus Elise in SS. Unfortunately I'm going to have to sell the Elise over the winter as we are looking for my daughter to start private school and I need the cash. I do have permission to use some of the money from the Elise sale to buy something for autocross and am seriously considering a kart. However after running the F600 for a couple of years, getting a 2 stroke carbed kart doesn't really have the appeal to me. That being said I want a kart that will PAX well when running our regional events as I will most likely continue running our Pro class as other karts aren't regulars. A TaG would be ok, but a shifter would be preferred as I would hope it would help sharpen my skills for running the F600. I have read through previous posts and it seems like 250 shifters are a big question mark at best right now for being nationally legal. I don't plan on running national or tour events but I don't want to buy something that will be worth next to nothing if the 250 shifters are ultimately shot down. Would there still be a market to resell the 250 if the rule was shot down or are the rules different from the W2W side? Any other options? Thoughts?
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Chris Ross
"If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error." John Kenneth Galbraith

05 Saffron Yellow Lotus Elise (SS)
NovaKBS Mark 7 Formula 600
2012 SARRC Series F600 Champion

Jason Vehige · Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:29 pm Post subject:

The future market for a used 250 4 stroke is a huge ? As there is not really a class for a 250 sprint kart. If $$ is at all a factor you just can't beat a 125 shifter with a carb... They are quite easy to tune and at this point I rarely change jets for most of the summer... It's just the spring and fall events where the weather changes enough to have to make a jet change.

I personally am partial to the Dellorto carb the ICC/KZ motors use but my use of an ICC is in the minority at the moment Cool

I guess what I am saying is don't let the carb push you into an uphill battle that might lead to a money pit....
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Jason Vehige

08 Gillard Charlotte / SGM sl204
05 Vanspeed Sirio / SGM sl204

Christian Hubbell · Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:32 pm Post subject:

CR125s are cheap and easy, don't be too intimidated. 250 FI is real tempting though, offers a nice even playing field. I'd love a DFI 125 2 stroke myself. I can't believe it would be cheaper or easier though initially with all the support for the 125s. Mounts, gears, pipes and what not.
Mod 125s are cheap now too, I'd be hard pressed to buy a 250 without some sort of rule though. Locals are good and all but the real fun is at the national and Pro events.
I was pretty laid back this year and literally never changed a jet, PAX'd pretty good usually too, top 10% or better.

Chris Ross 2 · Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:53 pm Post subject:

I kind of figured that was the answer unfortunately. I've gotten spoiled with the F600. I think the only change we made all year even remotely engine related was altering the fuel pressure slightly at the last race of the season to try and improve the fuel economy a bit because we were worried about carrying enough fuel. I'm usually right at 200 lbs suited up. Based on what I have read in some of the other threads I'm not likely to make minimum weight in a stock 125 correct? What about with the Mod Motor or ICC?
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Chris Ross
"If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error." John Kenneth Galbraith

05 Saffron Yellow Lotus Elise (SS)
NovaKBS Mark 7 Formula 600
2012 SARRC Series F600 Champion

Joe Ricard · Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:30 pm Post subject:

An ICC might be pretty close to perfect for your size. My kart is right around 195 with small radiator (winter) and a little more with a big 2 row unit.

I am sort of looking to sell it Vortex VL and RVS (parts)

99 Heron Daytona CRG CIK ICC.

$2500.00 2 pipes 2 carbs 2 air boxes 2 water pumps 3 clutches

Unless you destroy it the depreciation is about bottomed out.
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Arrow AX-8/ Rotax Sr.

Christian Hubbell · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:44 am Post subject:

Most Cr125 setups are around 205+, you could run a PI or an ICC and be just about perfect.
If its just for fun / locals why not autox the 600?

Chris M Johnson · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 568

I asked one of the top motor builders what weight differential would be required to equalize a PI and non-PI Honda motor. (?) This is the guy that builds and dynos top ICC/mod and stock Honda for skusa national champions.

He said the weight differential to balance a PI honda against a non-PI honda would be at most 5 lbs. The SCCA has run anywhere between 25-35#.

To equalize a Stock Honda( no mods/35hp) with an ICC (44hp), 15-20# is generally regarded as correct. A mod honda without PI makes the same peak power as the PI moto, but has about 500rpm less overrev. This is only significant at the end of a long straight in that it allows you to run shorter gearing for a given track and have a slight accel advantage everywhere else on the track. Let me know if you would like a link to this correspondence.

Unless you are light enough to meet the 385 minimum, I would encourage you to avoid the class if you are interested in being competitive in pax. You need to personally weight 165lbs or less to meet the minimum weight. Adding PI or ICC motor does almost nothing to offset this disadvantage. 250cc motors are not going to be any faster than a top ICC, so they do not offer any help for heavy drivers, they are mostly an expensive curiosity.

In five years of competition, I have not seen any result that would indicate this is not true. Small drivers cluster to top, the best "heavy" driver has never been within 2 seconds of the top light driver. When the top light driver does not show up at regional events, sometimes a heavy driver gets to within about 1s, but his overall placement depends on how many small drivers showed up. Its impossible for outsiders to make any conclusions about this from looking at the results because weights are not listed in the results, and its impossible to tell what motor package anyone is running. (all karts look the same in results.)

Further compounding the problem, there is only one builder producing mod moto blueprinted to use without PI. If you take any of the top motors built by swedetech, SRS, DDR, or CKT and remove the PI, you won't end up with a motor that equals the blueprinted hondas that were built 10+ years ago before the advent of PI. There are about 5 of these old builds still racing in the SCCA and they cannot easily be reproduced.

Its important to note that heavy drivers or underdeveloped karts can still pax very well locally if the course is tight. There are some elements that show up in local course design that totally break pax in favor of karts. Karts are not the kind of vehicle that you can compare to cars in pax and make any sort of meaningful conclusion about driving ability. But if you are a little guy, the class is going to be a big ego boost.

I would hate to see you join the list of "heavy" drivers who buy into the class and sell off in short order when they learn the truth about the class. But they are a hell of alot of fun, so if you are interested in a tight recreational class that has its own advisory committee, this might be the class for you. Good luck.

Joe Ricard · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:00 pm Post subject:

pointy end of KM is the built mod Moto @ 385 lbs. and a good chassis with the balls and brains to drive it well.

So you have to ask yourself

Do I want a kart to have fun and get a serious kick in the pants

or run on the big stage and play the serious business game.
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Arrow AX-8/ Rotax Sr.

Jason Vehige · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:16 pm Post subject:

Vernon Head · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:27 pm Post subject:

Chris Ross 2 · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:13 pm Post subject:

Christian Hubbell · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:27 pm Post subject:

And Ryan Lower, beat me at the Toledo Pro and think he was running the stock map on his PI. He's got at least 40 pounds on me. Best driver is going to win, no excuses.

You sound like a driver, and if you're willing to work you will do well and have one heck of a blast doin so.

Christian Hubbell · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:36 pm Post subject:

If you end up getting one, me and a couple of dudes would love to bring our shifters down to Moorseville on a Saturday and run an AutoX on Sunday. Just got back from a 6 hour enduro at Lowes Motor Speedway, tons of fun.

Chris Ross 2 · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject:

Unfortunately because of Concords no racing before noon, our autocross events at Zmax are on Saturday's.

I ran the Charlotte Motor Speedway road course earlier this year in the F600 and really enjoyed it. Serious pucker factor going into Nascar 3 at 130+ mph and keeping your right foot flat to the floor.
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Chris Ross
"If all else fails, immortality can always be assured by spectacular error." John Kenneth Galbraith

05 Saffron Yellow Lotus Elise (SS)
NovaKBS Mark 7 Formula 600
2012 SARRC Series F600 Champion

Christian Hubbell · Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:30 pm Post subject:

Sounds good, I'll get home for Sunday dinner then Very Happy

I'd look for a newer chassis 08 plus as they seem to be a little more consistent and easier to tune over all. There are a few with Mag components that shaves a few extra pounds but the weight savings of mag vs aluminum is not that much.

You are right in the sweet spot for an ICC or PI which are both cheap now too. I like the Honda's for the wet clutch and available knowledge though.

There will be plenty of guys much heavier than you like Mike Kline and Jeff Craven that won't be beaten easily or at all if you end up traveling so don't believe the weight hype.