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Tim Reed
Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 94
Location: Cincinnati
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 Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:01 am Post subject: |
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| Gary Osterholt wrote: | Why?
Now you look at the jump from Juniors to Seniors. You slow down over half a second.
And in my opinion at the national level this is one reason you see so many Juniors going straight into TaG. And leaving the 100cc classes.
Gary |
Juniors are not "leaving" 100cc classes and jumping into TaG... Juniors are "leaving" karting and jumping into CARS! It's a logical "end" point for juniors that have aspirations for becoming race car drivers. Understand the demographic we are talking about here. Understand your "customers".
Mess with the Junior formula, they will jump to cars sooner or go race series that offer TaG Junior. |
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mark coats
Joined: 07 Oct 2002
Posts: 502
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 am Post subject: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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Are the Can Classes Broke?? I sure have not noticed it if they are. Why in the world would WKA muess with the Can Classes? Tim I really don't think that the majority leave to run cars, I think they leave for school or when the parents stop paying the racing bill. The extra recreational $$ just is not out there. Last year the sportsman class was forced to buy karts, this year make everyone go buy pipes!! What Mark did not say is that the pipe is just the beginning of the cost, motors need reworked, testing needs done. Where does it end??
Mark Coats |
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Tim Reed
Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 94
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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| mark coats wrote: | | Tim I really don't think that the majority leave to run cars, I think they leave for school or when the parents stop paying the racing bill. The extra recreational $$ just is not out there. Mark Coats |
Mark - Fair enough. I was just trying to point out that Juniors are not "not" going Senior can because it's slower, they are just going on to other things... including cars, for some. Tim |
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mark coats
Joined: 07 Oct 2002
Posts: 502
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:41 am Post subject: |
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Tim,
I agree some are going to cars, but I would think less than 10%.
Mark |
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Gary Osterholt
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2771
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:56 am Post subject: |
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Opps
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Last edited by Gary Osterholt on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Tim Reed
Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 94
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:00 am Post subject: |
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| Gary Osterholt wrote: | Not every karter wants to move up to cars. Yes some do, but not everyone.
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I think you and Mark need to check your stats.... I was under the impression that EVERY kid in karting is on their way to Indy Car... especially the kid karters!
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Roger Ruthhart
Joined: 24 Jul 2001
Posts: 1302
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 7:45 am Post subject: Re: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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| mark coats wrote: | Are the Can Classes Broke?? I sure have not noticed it if they are. Why in the world would WKA muess with the Can Classes?
Mark Coats |
I agree with Mark. These classes have been consistent at our race for 19 years. No other class comes close.
Also agree with him on why we are losing young racers. We lose a handful to cars, but most to finances, college, girls, jobs, etc. Hopefully at some point some of them will return when they can again afford it. |
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Gary Osterholt
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2771
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:27 am Post subject: Re: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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| mark coats wrote: | Last year the sportsman class was forced to buy karts, this year make everyone go buy pipes!! What Mark did not say is that the pipe is just the beginning of the cost, motors need reworked, testing needs done. Where does it end??
Mark Coats |
Mark,
How many times a year do you replace the cans? From what I remember the cans break pretty often. Even my one brother that raced cans locally would replace that at least twice a year.
Gary
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Gary Osterholt
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2771
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:34 am Post subject: Re: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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| Roger Ruthhart wrote: |
I agree with Mark. These classes have been consistent at our race for 19 years. No other class comes close.
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19 years ago. in WKA you more options for the Yamaha engines. Jr and Seniors.
Back 19 years ago. For the Juniors you had the 3-Hole Can. For the Seniors you had the 4-Hole Can. For the Juniors you had restricted pipe. For the Seniors you had pipe. And guess what, Seniors was faster.
I don't know when it happened in America that the fastest class was the Juniors, but from many different angles. This is an issue, safety and keeping karters long term.
Every engine package in US Sprints the Juniors are fastest. Yamaha, Komet, TaG and Rotax. And this to me is the main problem.
Gary
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Mark Dismore Jr
Advertiser
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 1099
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:41 am Post subject: Re: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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| Gary Osterholt wrote: | | mark coats wrote: | Last year the sportsman class was forced to buy karts, this year make everyone go buy pipes!! What Mark did not say is that the pipe is just the beginning of the cost, motors need reworked, testing needs done. Where does it end??
Mark Coats |
Mark,
How many times a year do you replace the cans? From what I remember the cans break pretty often. Even my one brother that raced cans locally would replace that at least twice a year.
Gary |
The lid sometimes blow out (new lid $14.00) but changing out the entire can? Maybe once a year at most for the average karter, mainly because they feel guilty for thrashing it so long!
Constant rule changes and class updates in the enduro series pretty much killed it off, don't let the same happen to sprint racing! Outside of karting I don't have many job skills!
Mark |
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Tim Reed
Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 94
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:44 am Post subject: Re: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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| Gary Osterholt wrote: |
I don't know when it happened in America that the fastest class was the Juniors, but from many different angles. This is an issue, safety and keeping karters long term.
Every engine package in US Sprints the Juniors are fastest. Yamaha, Komet, TaG and Rotax. And this to me the main problem.
Gary |
I guess it depends on your perspective whether it is a "problem" or not, no? Perception is reality kind of thing? Again, know your customer... I doubt if you ask many Juniors, they will tell you there is a problem, except of course, that they aren't going fast enough!
For Man Cup, I would be willing to bet if someone did some quick math, there are a few more "juniors" registered for each event, than "seniors". Throw junior sportsman in the mix, and I would think the numbers aren't even close....
There are probably more junior yamaha + sportsman yamaha + yamaha rookie, than all other classes combined at a Man Cup weekend... |
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Tim Reed
Joined: 30 Jul 2002
Posts: 94
Location: Cincinnati
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 8:47 am Post subject: Re: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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| Mark Dismore Jr wrote: |
Constant rule changes and class updates in the enduro series pretty much killed it off, don't let the same happen to sprint racing! Outside of karting I don't have many job skills!
Mark |
+1 |
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Gary Osterholt
Site Admin
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2771
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:02 am Post subject: Re: Are the Can Classes Broke? |
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Opps
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Last edited by Gary Osterholt on Sat Nov 03, 2012 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Dan Haynes
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 2391
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Ellwood City
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:19 am Post subject: |
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In 3 years of running jr can we never replaced a whole can. We replaced a few lids but that was it. We did have 3 cans we swapped around though.
I still believe of those that leave after jr's its because of cost, not cars. Beaverun has some of the most dedicated, competitive racers of any track. Yet we go from about 15 jr. cans to about 7 or 8 sr's (TaG and sr can combined). And I know not a lot have left for cars. Some are because of a loss of interest but I have heard many complain about how expensive it is to compete in TaG so they just quit. There really is no other option locally for anything other than TaG. We have a couple of shifters and that's it. I'm not sure we have any sr. cans at our track. When we ran jr. can we could run a club race for about $200-250. We could competitively get 2 races out of our tires and engine rebuilds were roughly $50-75 per race ($500/8 races). In TaG we need a new set of tires every race if we want to be competitive, and a pro-rated cost of about $125 per race on engine wear. A local club race now costs us close to $400 when calculating engine wear.
We race to run up front and have fun, not to lap and have fun. When the competition is this close and the front runners put new tires on every race then you need to do the same to keep up. If we know we are running used tires and will likely finish mid-pack then we will just stay home.
We ran the Sunday of the Beaverun Man Cup in May and that is the only race we have ran all year. Partially because of other obligations/interests but also because of costs. But I think if we were still running jr. can (or sr. can) we would still be racing every weekend (or at least more than once a year)
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Blaise Haynes
#3 Arrow X1-CIK
TaG
Cook Racing Engines Parilla Leopard |
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Nick Johnston
Joined: 29 Dec 2003
Posts: 914
Location: United States, California, Reseda
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| Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Yamaha |
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| mike prokup wrote: | If they do what you say they are going to do it will drive many racers away from Yamaha.
It is not about the speed. It is the competition.
What about the motors? Now everyone will be looking for the special pipe cylinder. What about rebuilds? Getting 1.5 hrs between them now. What will be required with a pipe?
This sport is seriously messed up. There are not a lot of people in this sport so driving even a few away is a real mistake. That pipe class in route 66 did not last very long. Why? |
1.5 hours between rebuilds on a yamaha? What are you guys doing to those things?! Thats 1 race weekend!
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Nick Johnston |
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