Is Our Sport Broken? - Road Racing - Part 2

[Chris Hegar]

Greg & Linda are both right on target with those reply's. In fact there isn't much that isn't so far in the discussion.
_________________
www.Hegar4.com

[Craig Dori]

Thank you Greg & Linda for your thoughts. It's great to see people with valued opinions in the RR community voicing their concerns!!

Greg,
I completely understand your thoughts on the "National Champion" thing. And just like your Sprint Car comparison, wing, non-wing, 410, 360, 360 w/out wing, etc..... It is just like karting, ENDLESS.

The National Champion deal, to me, is a lot more than just crowning a champion. It is basically a way to help do what David mentions in his article... "Clean The Slate".

There has, and probably never will be enough co-operation between the Big 3 (IKF, KART, WKA) to make a class that you can run all over the country. I know some are close, but that is basically a very few. While trying to grow the sport, this fractured system of different classes, not only makes it difficult, but VERY HARD for someone new (or not so new) to understand.
To take that a step further.. While doing my research into all this, I learned that the laydowns on the west coast that are doing o.k., are running an 80cc engine. I had no idea this even exisited, or what type of engine thay were using??? Small example I know, but I am now somewhat invloved, and this was all news to me... Imagine a total newbie??

The National Title deal can just be the catalyst (by using classes that are already similar, and/or running an entry level class like 4 hole can), to help achieve some National Parity. Besides their is just that "cool" factor of racing against people Nationwide, and seeing where you stack up.
But perhaps, more importantly with this system, you can now very easily do a Manufacturer's Title too!! A true National Mgf's Title.
People say they want Factory Involvement. As it stands today, why would they want to be involved? What's in it for them? Not trying to be harsh here, but with the current state of RRing, and with the many of misconceptions that you pointed out so well, there is no reason to come.

Give them a reason to be here. A true National Title chase will help them sell karts, which in turn, will make them want to be here!
For now, that market is basically sit-up karts because that is what the market dictates. Laydowns will hopefully grow, when general overall interest grows.

Back to "Cleaning the slate". If there is another way, GREAT! Let's here it!
This National Title deal just gives us a starting point, with something cool to works toward. The National Title in itself, is not the fix-all, but a place to ORGANIZE a few across the board, National Classes. Otherwise I don't see a reason that this would ever happen?
I see it as much easier for the big 3 to give a few concessions to a few already succesful classes (that are hopefully already very close) to help this get started, then fixing the whole system. And the more I look into this, fixing the whole system would not be wise anyways. Why screw up things that are working in specific regions? Briggs in Kart, 80cc out west, Sprint Enduros in WKA land, etc... No need to mess with that, just look for ways to make them stronger.
Making them stronger with "new blood" is great, but in all honesty, expensive to promote, and who is going to dedicate the time? A few may volunteer, here and there, but to have any affect on "new blood", it will take some serious promotion. Who here can do that?
The growth is MORE THAN AVAILABLE within the karting community already! 1000's of karts, nationwide, running Sprint Tracks. A lot which, as mentioned earlier by others, would try RRing if the roadblocks were removed. Dual Brakes seems to be one of the biggest issues. O.K., that's easily fixed.
Local clubs handing out a flyer at the local sprint track (hand them out, don't just leave the stack by the pit gate) notifying these folks that just a 150 miles away, in a few weeks, is a RR at a big name track, that they can now easly attend!!!

When handing out those flyers, you can dispell some of the misconceptions Greg mentioned. Then, as with most, once they hit the big track, they're hooked!! Then, when your new RR karter talks to his non karting buddies, he will let his buddies know how he ran Mid-Ohio!!... This is where New Blood will come from!!

Is all this a dream scenario? Maybe? But as I keep saying, change has to start somehwere. And that change will need to be small at first for the simple fact of doing it right the first time, and to not upset the current apple cart.
Remember, this is working with all the current orgs. and clubs, NOT AGAINST THEM!! This system would pull no $ out of any club/org, and in a few cases, put $ in their accounts (clubs).

For those that think one Big National Race is not that way to go, I guess I just dis-agree. Daytona is a sort-of gathering of the clan each year, but very hard for west coasters to attend. And it's the first race of the year.
This deal, would be at the (near) end of the year Mid-Sept., and would not only be a finale to the National Point deals, bur can be a finale for anyones point chases. It can also be held more towards the center of the country, or move around each year... All things that can be worked out with a little effort.
Adding 10 classes from each of the big 3 to run for their highest trophy, would just be that much more intriguing... Especially if you run against people from all over the country!!

I have babbled on again, way to long. Sorry.
It's just that I see something special here that can not only help the sport, but make it that much more interesting for those already involved! And, I don't see any of it being too difficult to pull off. A very small amount of effort, and co-operation is all that is needed, from everyone who wonders if "Our Sport Is Broken".

Or maybe I am just dreaming.

[Chris Hegar]

Makes me wonder what Daytona might draw in a month like June or July. knowing track rental is probably impossible $ wise and schedule wise I still wonder how many might be attracted to a track with history and prestige like Daytona. If we weren't looking at 50 hours straight through December snow and ice we would attend it more. What other tracks are there in the nation that might attract big globs of karters even for just one event?
_________________
www.Hegar4.com

[Benn Herr]

[David Armstrong]

I think a lot of sprint karters (new & old) are turned off of rr because of the work or fabrication in getting a laydown ready to race. If a sprinter bangs up a cik nose or side pod, he buys a new one snaps or bolts (2) it on.

A laydown involves a Dremel cutting fiberglass, Dzus fasteners, pop rivits, maybe some welding, etc. Some people don't want to do this, don't know how to do this, or don't have the tools or the time to do this. You buy a new sprinter and you assemble it. You buy a new laydown and you have to fabricate it.

There is no easy answer. This is a good thread though and I hope rr survives whatever is causing this down turn. I'm 62 and too old to go race sprints again.

[Debbie Kuntze]

huh-you don't need a laydown to RR David, most classes these days are sit up anyway.

Also with RR very, very rarely do you need to snap on a new nose, etc as very, very rarely is one ever damaged. I'll be honest, my laydown bodywork looks a little worn, but then it's 15+ years old! So not alot of fabrication going on there and the nose was store bought anyway. So that can be "snapped" (Actually bolted) on. good news on that, if damaged, a little fiberglass patch fixes it, cheaper than a new one. Side panels are good for long straight aways but at some tracks they are taken off to improve handling so just have nerf bars.

But listen to me, I just happen to love RR and love persuading people to try it
_________________
Debbie Kuntze
kart9899@aol.com
www.uskgp.com

[Greg Wright]

[Chris Hegar]

CIK classes can cross over directly from sprint setup to rr setup with no changes other than ratio. The opinion you must be narrower lower this that and the other it's specialized to me doesn't really apply in say stock 125. I'm 6'1 and screwed aero wise compared to a shorty with a CIK chair and fairing installed but most times find a way to the front group in my old kart if I'm not being an idiot. These old ideas have always filtered to the sprinter making the desire to try rr low on the list. No one likes to feel like they don't have a chance at a good race even the first day out. Learn to draft, learn to race, learn throttle brake and be faster, rr is super fun on world class tracks for an 1/3 the price of a real race car. Many years in a laydown made our situp switch much easier with so many adjustments available and nothing to build since it's all on some European's shelf.
_________________
www.Hegar4.com

[David Armstrong]

Debbie, Greg, and Chris,
I understand what you're saying. These days you can race about anything in rr. Laydons, sit-ups, 4 cycle, 2 cycle. I was referring primarily to laydowns. We are all old enough to remember when a rr was mainly laydowns. It would be ok with me if the laydowns ran no bodywork, like the old days.
I was just saying that some sprint guy who has always been into cik plastic, a laydown looks like alot of work. At least that has been the comments I've heard from alot of sprinters here in the southeast USA.

[Chris Hegar]

Dad and I have often talked about one of the nationals IKF had in Vegas that allowed a weight break for no bodywork past the front wheel center line including no pan. Cars stayed clean inside and out, were easy to drive and really easy to work on. It won't happen but that kind of setup might bring some over onto the backboards. Spec laydown?
_________________
www.Hegar4.com

[Greg Wright]

+1 Chris!!
_________________
Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
NKN Columnist & Host "Karting News Live"

I AM INDY!!

"When in doubt, gas it. It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Bob Vehring]

[Chris Hegar]

I'm confused with how you wrote the above. So you put together 2 cik shifters with cik bucket seats sitting straight up or are we talking about 2 cik bodywork can yam class cars your team built and drove?

All I can say is that if you narrowed anything to the max allowed in a shifter your runners probably lost lots of time in the corners even on big tracks like Daytona to karts setup at card table widths. If I narrow my car up to much well within legal widths I'm a turd and will get left behind by my brother and others it's that sensitive at the top half of the grid. All my comments on cross over being related to a shifter not clutch cars or bodywork cars of any kind except the occasional laydown. A situp cik and or bodywork clutch car can sometimes find a faster pace narrow but it's usually voided by a big pack of karts. Handling is so very important in the spec world we now race in. These are just my results I'd expect others to have different findings and I do know your history as a very quick group at many tracks across the country. Full respect Bob.

Re reading it I see now your main point is a tall runner vs short. All I can say to that is a tall person has got to hit every mark all the time and find a draft or make it. I got no more power than anyone else in CIK stock moto and I've led quite a few first laps and even got away once in a blue moon. Best guess, one of your runners might of taken to the shifter better than the other. Once a long time ago a person told me anyone that can master the 4 stroke driving can master anything. I do not find that to be the case, 2 stroke hit is hard from 80cc, 125cc to twin 250cc which require tons of brake gas combo. Nothing regular 4 cycle kart motor compares when you push down the right foot. Don't get me wrong I have a couple 4 strokes I love to ride and the competition is fierce but it's not the same control style.
_________________
www.Hegar4.com

[Jeff DeMello]

[Bob Vehring]

Chris, your first paragraph actuly has opened the door to what the thread is really about. I am somewhat hasatent to talk about it because I am not looking to start any battles and understand why things are the way they are.
I know sometimes my post get long because I tent to over explain things, mostly I guess because I don't know whos reading them. This will have to be short because I'm burried in a project.

I'm well versed in the differances of a American style kart like Coyote and the imports like, well most others. The bet, that got me into CIK can in RR was I couldn't compete with a Coyote against the wider, different style imports. It was not an easy class back then, Josh Lane was one of our competutors. I knew the narrow kart would work well on the starights against the wider karts, and I knew we could make it handle. No one else was close to us usually and it came down to Jess and Regan and I do believe Regans height hurt him.
Now lets get down to how this relates. I always have been the one that does all the shows for Badger, they are what keep us strong. Since the end of our RA big track race, this has become even more important. Wendy and I do about 35 show days a year.
I think we all know that karting is the most afordable form of racing. As times got tough, defining what most people see as "afordable" became much more important. Here at Badger, most people start with a used package$, 1500-$2500 is common but deffinately some $800 Craigslist packages show up and start racing. What really sold me on Coyotes, and no I'm not a dealer, is their price. I've own many karts including Imports not complaining about anything in their constustion or performance at all. I also understand what they have to go threw to get here. The manufactoer, the exporter, the importer, the dealer network . Add in the boat ride, the differances in the dollar, and any taxes. A new import here can cost you between $4500 and 5K.
We just got done with 10 straight 15 hr days at State fair, so far 27 new people hae signed in on our new people list. Some have allready bought karts and started racing.
Then it starts, sometimes with in weeks. Badger is overflowing with kart dealers, each trying to make a living. "Glad you came to Badger, but your never going to do well with that kart, you need one of these, Your chassis is a few years old, its all flexed out, it won't work for you. Look at all the winners in your class, their all driving a "X" brand, you need that to do good. " Clearly my new guy has crapped in his seat. I loose 2 of every 3 people I bring in because of price or the perception of whats needed, with in 3 years
I got behind Coyote and again I dont sell them because a brand new top of the line XP cost $2499 including seat. The sales pitch from others say you won't win with a American chassis. The same Coyote here and Badger is a pretty big well known sprint track, owns the record in Animal, Yami ca and expert. One practice day we borrowed a Komet and in 3 sessions were 1/10 short of that record. Hopefully we'll get to borrow that engine some raceday.
I'm not trying to sell anyone on Coyotes What I'm trying to show is we can't, especially now in harder times price the sport out of the reach of many new people looking to get in. I also understand the free enterprize system, all offer good product and deserve to make money for their time and work, I get it, but I also see tracks failing because of low entries. SO how do we find an answer.
_________________
Bob Vehring
www.4cyclecentral.com