Is Our Sport Broken? - Road Racing - Part 2

[Chris Hegar]

It's so very difficult to combine motors that are not already sorted together into new classes without killing ones potential. 100cc Controlled spec in WKA and Yamaha anything is not gonna really work IMO. Reedjet does what 130mph at Daytona this year? MMmmm yea Yamaha with no fat ass driver on board might be able to do it but doubtful, changing to a short track is still a stretch. Tough task. I can see a nice cross reference points battle shaping up between Animal WKA and World Formula IKF but any middle meeting would need both classes for there own trophy's. This program reminds me of tag in general with all it's motors trying to be equal at the line.

At this point I can see 250 single superkart and CIK 125 stock Honda being the only 2 that run under the same rules or near same rules with tag probably getting in there somewhere but I know not of WKA's options vs IKF.
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[michael schorn]

[Benn Herr]

[Craig Dori]

CLEAN SHEET OF PAPER

After we put together the first column, one thing stuck in our minds. Is this a simple case where road racing needs to be reborn with a new mindset? Whether it’s religiously, financially, in personal relationships, or even as kids playing kick-ball, the phrase ‘do-over’ has been used before to help resolve a dying situation or to start over from scratch. Now we are not saying to wipe the sport completely clean and start over, but we could easily use the over 50 years of knowledge and history we have of the sport to move road racing forward instead of backwards. The possibility of using pages from the past in unison with the new concepts that are currently providing success in other areas of karting might be the best approach.

Taken from David's article to hopefully inspire more responses. To those that have added their insight, and or opinions so far, THANKS!
But, obviously need to hear from more of you.

This IS something that can be done! To not only help the sport as a whole, but in fact make it even more fun for those that currently just like things the way they are.
We all know everyone likes to win, but I am sure a guy like Randy enjoys winning more when there is huge field of contenders. As also mentioned somewhere in this thread, it is also funner to finish 7th or 8th in a huge field of karts, versus what is currently out there at most races. There is plenty of "talk" on how to do this, but let's try to get something "definitive".

Politics have impacted the sport drastically over the past few years. Similar to what we see on the national level, it has almost splintered the community and has certainly put people to one side or the other on a number of topics. While it would be easy to ask people to put aside their differences and move forward, it’s harder than it seems. In order to grow, we all need to put it behind us and move on, start looking at the future of the sport then what has happened already. The economy has hurt as well, but things seem to be turning around.

Again, if people can come together for purely just the benefit of the sport, this CHANGE CAN HAPPEN!! This isn't a case of say like Man Cup, where there are a lot of fingers in the pie, and everyone is looking for their own big piece. This is a community of dedicated racers that pretty much have a wide open canvas to make change..... If they REALLY want to?

I personally had another thought, in conjunction with the earlier proposal, that would benefit all.

4 National Classes of sit up (which 4 is still very debatable) (all would have uniform standard sprint kart seats, except for whatever the 250 class normally uses)
Stock Honda
Stock Leopard, CIK, Single Brake allowed... If running dual brakes, add 20lbs?????
USSK/ICE 250 Super Karts (Single Engine)
CIK 4 Hole Can Yamaha, Or Sportsman, Or hybrid with Briggs, Single Brake Caliper allowed

2 National Laydown Classes
Yamaha Sportsman
and ??????

These classes would run under a uniform set of Nationwide rules with their current clubs, and/or Orgs. While running where they wish, they would still be supporting their local club, or IKF, KART, or WKA, but also running for a National Title. The point system would be based off of Kart count, very similar to the way that the NASCAR Whelen Modified Series runs their's:
The new simplified point structure – introduced in 2007 – features an “inverted” point’s format, with car counts affecting the amount of points a competitor receives. Points are awarded in ascending order with the last place car receiving two points, next-to-last receiving four and then up through the field in two point increments – up to a maximum 20 cars. In addition, the race winner receives an additional five (5) bonus points. (For example, the feature winner in a 10-car field will receive 20 NASCAR points, while the feature winner in a 20-car field would receive 45.)

Taking Chris's idea of a driver's best 4 finishes.

Then, say mid-September, this group would have one big National Championship race. It can be at one location annually, or possibly move around the country. Either way, the 6 National Classes would be competiting for their National Title. ALSO at this race would be (this can be changed, just using it for a starting #) 10 Classes EACH, as chosen by each of the big 3 (IKF, KART, WKA) to run for their respective Duffy, Eagle, and Triad!
The race would be promoted by XYZ Kart Road Race National Championship, and run by (for a $ fee to their account, instead of the other way around) the club that is closest to wherever this race is run. For example, if the National race was run an Mid-Ohio, Dart Kart Club would run the races, and in return, receive some compensation for their club. Or if it was at Topeka, KART/MARRS would run the actual event, and would be compensated for their efforts. This in turn would put a little $ in whatever club's particular bank account, to help them run their own races in the future! This way, everyone has their one BIG National race, to look forward to, and work toward too!!
This annual "gathering of the clan" would help pave the way for putting together more National sets of rules for other classes to join in a National Title chase!
The local Clubs, and regional orgs can still run their own programs, with virtually little effect... Other than (hopefully) some minor changes to these 6 classes to make them all uniform.

Dreaming? Maybe? But with some input from everyone, I truly see no reason why this can't be done.
Thanks again for reading my ramblings.

[Chris Hegar]

Where do I sign up and where is this final national gonna be? Sounds like I need to make a room reservation.
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www.Hegar4.com

[Bob Vehring]

First, let me apolagiuse for not reading all 13 pages of this, sorry I just don't have time right now. Some of you know me, for those that don't, I have two boys that have RR'ed since the early 90's including many years of every WKA and CES race. They both have done well. You might know us as the leaders of the group of Animals that have 4 Cycle Central on them. I also one of the people that put on the Road America race for the last 20 years, I am a board director of Badger.

Someone contacted me to ask if I could add anything to this conversation, I guess mostly because we don't do alot of it anymore, and the reasons why.

I would have to say our moving away from RR centers around two very different things.

1, Over the years we have been to about every track on the east coast from NH to Daytona and every track west back to Wi. Most, any times. They were great years. 6 or 7 years ago Road America pulled over 1000 entries. Life was good. At that time, people would call me and ask,"your bring your group to our race arent you?" Then we always had 15-20 Animals willing to travel to a race, where ever it was.
As times tightened, the problem was fewer and fewer people were willing to travel to races in our area in the upper midwest. Whatever you have heard, the real reason for the lose of RA was low entries. It was to risky at its price for a club like Badger to gamble on to just brake even. We tried the last two years with WKA making it a National for the first time in over 20 years, but even that didn't help, you know the bottom line.
We lost other races out here and the end result, at least for my group was, most looked for other forms of racing that didn't force traveling to the east coast for most of the races all season. Most of my guys still race something.
We race Blackhawk and Mid Ohio this year, talking with friends or customers, the painfull truth is in many classes the National Champion simply is the person willing to put the most miles on their trailer, it has nothing to do with being the fastest.
It seams the only track where everyone goes is Daytona. We have only missed two Daytonas since '94, the year it was closed and last year. I understand the warm days in winter and I get the "its Daytona thing", but after a year or two, at least my kids consider it the most boring track we go to. For Animals its 29 1/2 min. of following in line only to hope that when the lead pack splits, luck is with you. Not worth a 24 hr ride each way for us if were not doing the entire series.

2, The second reason is related to both saftey and frustration. I understand after all the years of putting together our RA race, the problems of getting together race groups. Everyone wants a light and a hy, a young and a old , this seat and that seat etc. We have no problem running with karts much faster then ours, the problem comes with diferent classes with greatly mis-matched cornering speeds. Stock Animal will run 86 or so on tight, short straight tracks, big tracks were 96-97 mph. There is no question that a TaG can go quite a bit faster then us, however, we dont have to slow down with our 36 in wide sprinter near as much for a corner. This has been a problem since CIK style karts have been mixed with sprinters. I'm not blaiming either group because each has its own race to run. but the fact remains, if you put a pack of 6 sprinters and a pack of 6 CIK karts into the same corner at the same time, you ain't getting 12 to come out, at least still in thir groups.
I don't mind digging up the money to travel to a race, and we have to dig pretty hard, but when your watching the race finish from the wall, it doesn't take many times to figure out your fate is being deside by other factors and its not worth the time or the money you spend.

We do miss all our friends and the parties, but we still race just about every weekend, just something else, its all fun.
Bob
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Bob Vehring
www.4cyclecentral.com

[Bob Vehring]

I was also asked if I could add anything to the Animal/WF/Can dicussion, maybe a little.
First, for whatever reasons, the WF never took off around here, no tracks or series offer it to any real extent. Nothing against the engine, I guess Animals simply took hold first
Our only involvement with it was in the begining days doing testing for Briggs. While the WF does have more carb, cam, and compression, its performance potential is held back by its rev limiter and the choice of fuel, which is gas. Other 4 strokes here use alky as fuel. End result here is their very close at this track.

Looking at the Animal-WF-Can engines, all are somewhat close but there are differances on how and where they make power.
Using my home track as an example, a 6/10's sprint track, fairly fast around its perimiter, tight infield. Overhead view available at www.badgerkartclub.com.
The Animal will out pull either of the others off the corner, (or in a RR style start) because of its smaller cam/carb its simply very strong on the bottom end and a wide power band. The WF kinda sits in the middle, and the can being a small 2 stroke takes alittle to get wound up and make its power. Once up and running it will be the fastest at the end of the straights.
It just happens that Badgers combination of straights vs corners allows all 3 of these engines to turn almost identical lap times. Regan has set both Animal and Can track records and there within a few 1/100s We have one class that combines both WKA Animal and WKA Can together, either engine can win.
This same relationship works out pretty close at Blackhawk Farms RR track. Regan has raced both engines in RR'ing and any track with longer straights or less tight corners and the can is faster and has the advantage.

Something that may be of interest. Rather then using the old restrictor plates WKA has used for years, Briggs has developed a line of different lenght slides to control power. These eliminate the fuel puddling and tuning issues. This is how the same 206 cc engine runs in a kid kart, the longer slide only allows it to open about 1/4 in.
Severeral weeks ago we ran a money race for Animals, we wanted to include the Jr Animal class. here, both Jr Animal and Sr Animal run un-restricted, but Jr's weigh 300 and Sr 350. We picked a briggs slide that put one of our Jr drivers just a bit slower then my son Ryan They would run 10-15 laps, come in and Regan would file afew thosands of the top of the slide, run them again, repete. By the 4th session both karts could turn identical times and either one could lead. In the end, Regan won the race but Robert set fast time by a few hunderts in a Jr set up. Came out very fair.
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Bob Vehring
www.4cyclecentral.com

[Jeff Salak]

What has helped ruin the Tag class in WKA is the single engine Tag leopard class. It left too many Tag engines out to dry. Road racing isnt like Man Cup with 90% of sprint racers running a Leopard. Many die hard Road racers run 4-6 times a year. They are not looking to change engines if they dont own a leopard.

CES series 70% Tag Senior and Masters run a Rotax. But all tag engines are allowed. No one cares or bitches about weights or anything! Imagine that!!!

This is about numbers isnt it? Are we looking to build National numbers or club/regional first?

I think this big hit National is the wrong approach. Just my opinion. Needs to start back at the bottom and grow again!

Does any Leopard owners run a Stock Leopard? Maybe Jim R does the rest...

[Jeff Salak]

I guess more or less what im trying to say about Tag. With 70% of CES Tag racers running a Rotax. We wouldnt even be able to race.

How does this help anything grow????

[Benn Herr]

[Brian Wilhelm]

Rather than have a 250 class, it needs to be an Unlimited type class. 250's can run in it, but also twin engine laydowns, laydown 125's, etc., have a place to run. Have a USSK/ICE 250 only class takes too many karts out of the mix.
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Brian

[Craig Dori]

[Linda Baldus]

In the first place I must admit that I have not read all 13 pages of this thread. I tried to follow it, but when things started going off subject, I just couldn't take it anymore, and lost interest. I have re-visited the topic a few times, but not regularly.
OK, here's my 2¢.
I do not believe, especially in this down period of high gas and low disposable $$, that a one-off event is the answer to our problem. I just don't think there are enough people that can afford to, or have the time, to do the traveling and support such an event.
Now for the rest of it, I believe one of the real problems w/ rr-ing is that you can't go into your local kart shop and buy something race ready that Joe Blow can afford, won't scare the crap out of them on the track, and will be able to do the relative low-maintenance on it.
I believe one of the reasons moto-X is as successful as it is is that you can! It's sure not because they don't have too many classes, because they have lots, and most people can run at least 2 a day with the same bike if they have the funds.
I know some of you will say TaG is the perfect class. I believe it only meets one of that criteria.
As an example of something we have had work is the KART MARRS' Animal class. But the main reason it has is that Kelly Read, Jim Edgington and Mike took it upon themselves to locate inexpensive chassis they could put an engine on and take to the track with a FOR SALE sign and the price didn't turn the possible racer off when they talked to those guys. If there were kart shops that were willing to do this I believe we would get new blood.
New blood is the main solution to our problem, IMO. But what the heck, maybe an upturn in the economy would solve all of our problems!
(And on this subject and to explain where I come from on this, I also believe the worst thing ever done to rr-ing was letting them get too fast, especially w/ no real restrictions as to class eligibility. And the Lord knows, our team has been as guilty of this as many others, but you just don't have to run 120 mph to have fun!)
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Keep on kartin' llb.
lindabaldus@hotmail.com

[Greg Wright]

WOW!! 13 pages of discussion and I've seen it go from "This is about IKF" to "We don't have a true national champion" and all points in between. I'm not sure that any of that has anything to do with the meat of this thread.

IN MY OPINION the biggest obstacle to roadracing resurrection is perception by the contemporary kart racer coupled with the fact that to a large extent roadracing has been "Left to it's own devices" by the national orgs, in other words neglect.

Roadracing needs to change many commonly held false perceptions, including;

Roadracing is comprised of a small bunch of "Mad Monks" that have no linkage to the rest of kart racing. (The true spirit of kart racing is alive and well in the roadracing community)

Roadracing is boring. (If you have never had a proper experience or no experience at all then you don't know)

Roadracing is excessively dangerous. (Although there have been some very unfortunate incidents there have been more deaths in sprint, street and oval racing than there has in roadracing)

Roadracing doesn't require driving skill. (Wanta bet?)

Roadracing is too expensive. (Traveling expenses are a huge factor but the same costs are there for the traveling sprint or oval racer, and the amount of track time per weekend is mammoth compared to any other form of kart racing) (Can you say bang for your buck?)

Roadracing doesn't get enough recognition. (Sadly true but go back and read my comments on the national orgs neglect of the genre)

I personally feel that this thread has been about reviving roadracing rather than IKF v WKA v CES v KART etc.
I also personally am sick and tired of the "We don't have a true national champion" discussion. While true I will point out some facts that I have pointed out before. (see below)

Who was the National Sprint Car champion in 2011? Did he run WOO, USAC, ALL STARS, CRA, other?

Who was the National Sports Car champion in 2011? Did he run Grand Am, ALMS, SCCA, NASA, other?

Who was the National Stock Car champion in 2011? Did he run NASCAR, ARCA, ASA, other?

Who was the National Drag Racing champion in 2011? Did he run NHRA, ADRL, AHRA, other?

Give the "No true national champion" thing a rest, that's small picking compared to the other problems that we are faced with.

Give roadracing some publicity and quit treating it like an unwanted stepchild and it will grow and the classes will consolidate due to size instead of the AMWAY type of business model that infests kart racing at most levels.

Like I said at the beginning of this post, IN MY OPINION!!
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Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
NKN Columnist & Host "Karting News Live"

I AM INDY!!

"When in doubt, gas it. It won't help but it ends the suspense."

[Debbie Kuntze]

The point of not enough recognition always gets me as you see more Indy 500 winners from road racing than you see from sprints (I guess I should say American Racers/winners )
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Debbie Kuntze
kart9899@aol.com
www.uskgp.com