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Chris Hurst
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 569
Location: United States, California,
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 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:44 pm Post subject: Autonomous Race Car - Ted Talks |
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Before I post this link, I just want everyone to know that I absolutely hate this as a driver and an enthusiast. I am not questioning the presenters intelligence or insulting him on a personal level at all, but this man has no idea, absolutely no idea what racing is about. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q1sk47FLAmg#!
Seriously...guys does anyone else actually get angry watching this? My blood is boiling. Did anyone else watch this and go, "yeah duh dude..."
Maybe I'm just being cynical, but I think this guy has no clue and they are working towards something I don't ever hope to see become the norm. |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9479
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:21 pm Post subject: |
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Chris,
At least one expert has estimated that computers will be able to completely simulate the human brain, in real time by the end of this decade. Maybe that's optimistic, but the writing is on the wall. And the march is relentless. Computers will exceed us some time in the next decade or so. Eighteen months later they will be approximately twice as fast. And twice as fast again each eighteen months later.
Will they be better drivers? Absolutely. Should we care? Not so sure. Computers already do so many things better than we can and none of that seems to take much away from us.
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A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on. -- Winston Churchill. |
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Nick Weil
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1795
Location: United States, Florida, Orlando, FL US of A
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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Chris,
My guess is you didn't really pay attention to what they are trying to do. They aren't trying to replace race cars and race car drivers, but rather they want to implement technology and as of yet, non-existent systems, into autonomous cars for the masses.
As far as your assessment of the presenter and his lack of an idea about racing and what it entails. I don't think he made any statements that were incorrect.
Did I miss something he said that was factually incorrect?
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Nick Weil
Authorized Rotax Service Center and Dealer since 2002
2004 Team USA Rotax Worlds Finals DD-2 Driver
Want to save money AND grow the economy? www.fairtax.org |
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Chris Hurst
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 569
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 11:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Nick Weil wrote: | Chris,
My guess is you didn't really pay attention to what they are trying to do. They aren't trying to replace race cars and race car drivers, but rather they want to implement technology and as of yet, non-existent systems, into autonomous cars for the masses.
As far as your assessment of the presenter and his lack of an idea about racing and what it entails. I don't think he made any statements that were incorrect.
Did I miss something he said that was factually incorrect? |
Nick I watched the whole thing and I comprehended everything. Please don't insult my intelligence. I taught myself French and Japanese simultaneously and advanced placed 2 years worth of each subject with a 98% on both finals having studied each subject for a grand total of 4 months.
My concern here is that autonomous vehicles will become mandated down the line and I would hate to see the only form of controlled driving isolated to competition or furthermore see the next wave of cheating in motorsport become implementations of autonomous programming.
There is already rampant cheating that goes on in the highest levels of motorsport. If autonomous programming becomes the next wave of cheating motor sport is dead in the water. My concerns are long range and I am seeing where this leads motor sport decades from now. Hopefully that helps you further understand my frustration with this technology.
Last edited by Chris Hurst on Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Chris Hurst
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 569
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | Chris,
At least one expert has estimated that computers will be able to completely simulate the human brain, in real time by the end of this decade. Maybe that's optimistic, but the writing is on the wall. And the march is relentless. Computers will exceed us some time in the next decade or so. Eighteen months later they will be approximately twice as fast. And twice as fast again each eighteen months later.
Will they be better drivers? Absolutely. Should we care? Not so sure. Computers already do so many things better than we can and none of that seems to take much away from us. |
I agree with you in some sense, but we should care about it, heres why:
I don't think we should ever get to a point as a species where we are creating machines that are smarter than us. I have spent a lot of time studying Plato's dialogues and I think we are entering a very dangerous territory with this kind of innovation, this being the tip of the iceberg. Will they be better drivers? I would again have to say no.
That last point splits into a very dynamic explanation:
1) Commuter driving: if our drivers on the road were trained better and licenses were harder to get / laws were better designed we would be much better off than having autonomous vehicles. I think the lack of driver training in this country is really the root of the problem and the root of the problem has become so bad that we are turning to machines and technology to correct our own inadequacies both physically and legally.
2) Racing: while there has always been a battle of getting the edge in a competitive environment racing is and has always been about the man behind the wheel and his ability to control his machine or overcome a disadvantage to win a race. Rain is a great example of this, but we see it in other areas. Would anyone on this forum like to watch a kart race with a bunch of autonomous karts driving around a track? I don't think so.
In summary we need to focus on ourselves instead of glorifying technology to solve our problems. We can create autonomous vehicles that function off of extraordinarily complicated algorithms, yet we can't create a law that prevents someone in the far left lane on the freeway from going 45mph in a 65 zone?
Something is very peculiar in that. The root of these problems are innately human and it is my personal opinion that we should address ourselves instead of creating technology to bypass flaws in our laws or training.
It is like learning how to kart and saying "I can't moderate the throttle for sh*t so I'm just going to install a traction control system." Excuse my French, I studied for 4 years 
Last edited by Chris Hurst on Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total |
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Nick Weil
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1795
Location: United States, Florida, Orlando, FL US of A
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:20 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Hurst wrote: |
Nick I watched the whole thing and I comprehended everything. Please don't insult my intelligence. I taught myself French and Japanese simultaneously and advanced placed 2 years worth of each subject with a 98% on both finals having studied each subject for a grand total of 4 months.
My concern here is that autonomous vehicles will become mandated down the line and I would hate to see the only form of controlled driving isolated to competition or furthermore see the next wave of cheating in motorsport become implementations of autonomous programming.
There is already rampant cheating that goes on in the highest levels of motorsport. If autonomous programming becomes the next wave of cheating motor sport is dead in the water. My sights are set to long range and always have been. Hopefully that helps you further understand my frustration with this technology. |
Kudos on the homegrown education! Not sure how it's relevant here, I must have missed the parts where they were speaking in French and Japanese.
As far as autonomous vehicles go... The reality remains that populations are still exploding and traffic has become a major problem in virtually every metropolis of the world. The only real answer for real commuting is going to be autonomous vehicles. Fortunately, by the time that all gets sorted out, chances are the vehicles will have to deal in X,Y, and Z.
Your worries of autonomous programming are well founded, but you're about 50 years late. Unfortunately, you probably weren't around during the 60's, and 70's when 'autonomous programming' really started. Back then they called them things like 'MaxTrac' (traction control), CVT's and the dreaded 'electronic' or programmable ignitions. The list goes on and on, but it all represents the best technological minds getting together and figuring out how to make things go faster and more efficiently. Technology almost always wins these battles, and this one won't be any different. As far as 'long-range' goes, it's going to take a long time, and by the time autonomy becomes the norm, we will likely not even be touching pavement.
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Nick Weil
Authorized Rotax Service Center and Dealer since 2002
2004 Team USA Rotax Worlds Finals DD-2 Driver
Want to save money AND grow the economy? www.fairtax.org |
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Nick Weil
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1795
Location: United States, Florida, Orlando, FL US of A
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:22 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Hurst wrote: | We can create autonomous vehicles that function off of extraordinarily complicated algorithms, yet we can't create a law that prevents someone in the far left lane on the freeway from going 45mph in a 65 zone?
Something is very peculiar in that... |
Autonomous vehicles solve that problem too, and they do without a government official getting involved! 
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Nick Weil
Authorized Rotax Service Center and Dealer since 2002
2004 Team USA Rotax Worlds Finals DD-2 Driver
Want to save money AND grow the economy? www.fairtax.org |
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Chris Hurst
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 569
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:37 am Post subject: |
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| Nick Weil wrote: | | Chris Hurst wrote: | We can create autonomous vehicles that function off of extraordinarily complicated algorithms, yet we can't create a law that prevents someone in the far left lane on the freeway from going 45mph in a 65 zone?
Something is very peculiar in that... |
Autonomous vehicles solve that problem too, and they do without a government official getting involved! |
Haha Nick I was just bring up Japanese and French in that I can comprehend what I am watching. Honestly I agree with you in terms of it being the easier solution to traffic, I just hate to see it become mandated you know?
I'm just concerned it can be hacked, it can have catastrophic problems with one tiny line in programming error or a software glitch. Imagine a computer freeze or crash with tens of thousands of people on the receiving end of the glitch. Personally I don't think it's a good idea.
The thing is maxtrac and CVTs did not control the throttle and the brakes, they were assists. What we're talking about here is a total take over of input control. There is a huge difference between traction control and "I'm going to press the gas pedal FOR you." |
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Chris Hurst
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 569
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:42 am Post subject: |
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Whats strange when you really think about it is if we are going to totally autonomous wouldn't it make more sense to just abandon gasoline entirely and rig everything up via magnets like Japans bullet trains? We could go much faster, no gasoline used and it would be much easier to control with the exception of getting off the freeway.
We are really boxed in by the infrastructure we created given where we see technology moving. |
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Nick Weil
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1795
Location: United States, Florida, Orlando, FL US of A
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:16 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Hurst wrote: |
The thing is maxtrac and CVTs did not control the throttle and the brakes, they were assists. What we're talking about here is a total take over of input control. There is a huge difference between traction control and "I'm going to press the gas pedal FOR you." |
I am not sure you understand the MaxTrac traction control. When in use, it DEFINITELY controlled the throttle (and to some extent, the brakes).
As to your implied "huge difference": The only difference is that with one solution you still have an error-prone human controlling the situation for this discussion.
As far as abandoning gasoline entirely, now your talking about an economic/political discussion that just won't happen in current times. There are way too many fingers and $$ in the world of combustion engines for it to go away very fast(if ever). Once again a reason that your reaction to the topic is a bit 'overreaction'.
Racing isn't going anywhere, and autonomous vehicles are the next logical step in transportation. For every person like you and I that LIVE to drive, there are probably 20-100 people that dislike (or get this!) even HATE driving. Those people should not be driving, and you and I should allow anything that helps them out from behind the wheel.
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Nick Weil
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2004 Team USA Rotax Worlds Finals DD-2 Driver
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Tim Doll
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2643
Location: United States, Washington,
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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The limiting factor for something like a self-driving car is the programing. The best computer in the world can only do what it's programmed to do - what better way to learn how to program a self-driving car that to make it race.
Getting rid of 'bad drivers' will only do so much - commercial airline pilots are highly trained professional pilots, and yet the leading cause of airline crashes is pilot error. In fact, the number one cause is what we call "Controlled Flight into Terrain" or C-FIT, where they fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground (that's the leading theory for the new Russian jet that crashed into a mountain in Indonesia a few months back).
We've joked for years that the next new airplane would be flown by a pilot and a dog - the pilots job would be to feed dog treats to the dog, the dog's job would be to bite the pilot if he touched any of the controls 
We're not quite there yet, but we're getting closer all the time - the pilots are basically there in case something goes wrong. One problem is that the pilots are getting so spoiled by the automatic systems that they don't know what to do if something does go wrong. That Air France A330 that crashed into the Atlantic 3 years ago didn't crash because the pitot tubes iced up - it crashed because the pilots didn't know how to fly the airplane after the automatic system sensed there was something wrong with pitot tube sensed airspeed and disconnected.
Probably the biggest obstacle to auto-drive cars in the near future is potential liability - can you imagine the lawsuit if a self-driving car caused a fatal accident?
Tim
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Chris Hurst
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 569
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Nick Weil wrote: | | Chris Hurst wrote: |
The thing is maxtrac and CVTs did not control the throttle and the brakes, they were assists. What we're talking about here is a total take over of input control. There is a huge difference between traction control and "I'm going to press the gas pedal FOR you." |
I am not sure you understand the MaxTrac traction control. When in use, it DEFINITELY controlled the throttle (and to some extent, the brakes).
As to your implied "huge difference": The only difference is that with one solution you still have an error-prone human controlling the situation for this discussion.
As far as abandoning gasoline entirely, now your talking about an economic/political discussion that just won't happen in current times. There are way too many fingers and $$ in the world of combustion engines for it to go away very fast(if ever). Once again a reason that your reaction to the topic is a bit 'overreaction'.
Racing isn't going anywhere, and autonomous vehicles are the next logical step in transportation. For every person like you and I that LIVE to drive, there are probably 20-100 people that dislike (or get this!) even HATE driving. Those people should not be driving, and you and I should allow anything that helps them out from behind the wheel. |
Nick you make some valid points, I thought maxtrac was just a form of TC like the current systems out. I will make sure to educate myself on it within the coming weeks.
I don't know, there is just something really spooky about not having control with hundreds of thousands of cars on the road. It should be a choice to have control or not to have control. My fear is that this becomes mandated. |
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Chris Hurst
Joined: 27 Jul 2007
Posts: 569
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Doll wrote: | The limiting factor for something like a self-driving car is the programing. The best computer in the world can only do what it's programmed to do - what better way to learn how to program a self-driving car that to make it race.
Getting rid of 'bad drivers' will only do so much - commercial airline pilots are highly trained professional pilots, and yet the leading cause of airline crashes is pilot error. In fact, the number one cause is what we call "Controlled Flight into Terrain" or C-FIT, where they fly a perfectly good airplane into the ground (that's the leading theory for the new Russian jet that crashed into a mountain in Indonesia a few months back).
We've joked for years that the next new airplane would be flown by a pilot and a dog - the pilots job would be to feed dog treats to the dog, the dog's job would be to bite the pilot if he touched any of the controls
We're not quite there yet, but we're getting closer all the time - the pilots are basically there in case something goes wrong. One problem is that the pilots are getting so spoiled by the automatic systems that they don't know what to do if something does go wrong. That Air France A330 that crashed into the Atlantic 3 years ago didn't crash because the pitot tubes iced up - it crashed because the pilots didn't know how to fly the airplane after the automatic system sensed there was something wrong with pitot tube sensed airspeed and disconnected.
Probably the biggest obstacle to auto-drive cars in the near future is potential liability - can you imagine the lawsuit if a self-driving car caused a fatal accident?
Tim |
Tim that was an interesting reply, I didn't know about C-FIT until you mentioned it just now. Thats what I mean, I think this is dangerous because it removes people and people will eventually become so removed they freeze up if something happens that requires them to take control.
I just think this is a really bad idea because of the implications it has and potential danger. What if there is a glitch in the system or the software isn't updated. I just think the potential cons outweigh the potential gains and I am completely happy with how things are now.
Are you in aviation as a profession? |
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Ted Hamilton
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 987
Location: United States, North Carolina, King
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Skynet is coming. Better start scouring your phonebooks to find John Conner. Or building a EMP device. 
So long as this type of thing never reaches karting, I'm not too worried about it. There will always be purists who d/c all the aids for the sheer thrill (and occasional terror?) of driving in competition...
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Owner, www.hamiltonhelmets.com // UAS Racer #76 // Karting for karting's sake...keep it fun! |
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Pete Schaible
Joined: 14 Nov 2009
Posts: 47
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Blue Bell
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| I think litigation is the limiting factor. I'm in my autonomous car and small glitch causes me to hit someone or something. Who is at fault? Is it me because I am in the car or is it the manufacturer because of the glitch. Due to our current legal system the manufacturer could be held accountable. I am not too worried about something like this happening anywhere in the remote future. The cost of the occasional glitch would be prohibitively expensive. |
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