europe v usa

[bird]

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I have to disagree with you on that...a few years ago Patrick Long (trained in America) raced for the CRG factory, he actually won one of the biggest races of the year (winter cup). Philip Giebler (also trained in America) won the CIK North American Championships against the field of European drivers. I also have limited experience in Europe and have run with the current world champion David Fore.. i have to say i defenitley held my ground...and surprised his team at the same time. There is a better system in Europe but give a top American the same situation (as in P.Longs place) and i guarentee you you have a front runner.

Good points Colin but no ones saying Americans aren't quick enough, it's more an attitude thing. Also correct me if I'm wrong but I heard Patrick Long at least didn't go the conventional shifters route.

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I love F1 racing but do we really think these guys are the best drivers in the world. The perception from the fans may say one thing but most of these drivers are not the best or the elite. They may think so but we can see week in and week out they are really some bone heads in there. These machine almost drive themselves these days.

But are they any more bone-headed than drivers in other series? For my money boneheads of the year so far are Verstappen and Montoya, both of whom had pretty impeccable pre-F1 pedigrees.

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I would say some of the best drivers in the world drive karts.

I would agree to a very large extent there, so does Michael Schumacher... Ever wondered why there isn't many successful Italian F1 drivers? 'Cause they're all in FSA! Senna told Mike Wilson that international karts are the closest in feeling to F1 cars as well.

Another thing, we don't seem to have any problem with karting being seen as a sport for young people here. If people of early middle age plus really want to do it they will.

In tennis for example, the adult leisure players far outnumber the potential Ivanisevics and Williams but the organisations don't concentrate on them do they? And the public courts up the road from me are still full all summer, so I don't know what it's like in a country where people are actually good at tennis

[Marc Miller]

"Also correct me if I'm wrong but I heard Patrick Long at least didn't go the conventional shifters route."

MaryAnne,

Remember, when Patrick was racing in the U.S. was before the shifter boom. He ran 80cc whenever he could before moving to Europe, just when the shifter class was making a claim as the most popular karting class.


Just wanted to correct you since you were wrong hehe j/k.

Marc

[bird]

Thanks Marc

[Larry Ferguson]

Actually Marc, you aren't totally correct here about Patrick. Since his dad Jon is one of my best friends, and Patrick has been somewhat of a mentor to Randolph, I do know that even though he did race his SSC/CRG 80 Shifter on a limited basis, his primary kart racing was based around FA. His Shifter racing was really quite limited, albiet, he was pretty successfull when he did race in his 80. Doesn't really matter though, he still kick *** !

[Phil Clements]

I think most all the points brought up here are contributing to the lack of American talent in F1. The way our drivers are trained, the mind-set of the kids, the politics(and anyone that says Micheal Andretti's lack wasn't caused by REAL big politics is nuts!) One BIG factor tho that hasn't been mentioned: In Europe racing (including karting) is big business. It is viewed as business. In the U.S. racing is viewed as fun and by most as a hobby. In Europe people are making 10's of thousands of dollars for driving a kart! Does that happen here? N-O-T!!!

There's nothing wrong with this. But, it is fact. Very few parents put their kids in a kart thinking that they will be the next Jeff Gordon, Alex Zanardi, or Alan Prost.

[Brad Fultz]

I have a question, do you think that cik/fia helps with the success? they are the main sanctioning group in europe I thought??? If that is true why dont they jump the pond and start here so if you want to have a World Champ you can. Like the Superbowl Champs are calling themselves world champs wrong I dont think they beat the Rhien Fire to win.
Here we have so many different sanctioning groups, wka, ikf, skusa, 4 cycle 2 cycle and also the regional racing that goes on, if we had a unification of rules and scheduling in regions, where you could have good turnouts would be great. I would like some feedback on this cik/fia thing.

[Chaz Clover]

The FIA/CIK organization goes well beyond Europe - Asia, South America and Australia all work within that organization.

It appears that the USA chooses to NOT participate.

I think that's short-sighted at best, but it also appears to be a contant in American attiudes towards international sporting participation in general (saving the olympic sports).

American Motorsports is hopelessly fragmented across the board. All across the country there are literally hundreds of different organizations sanctioning everything from riding lawnmowers to Indy cars. Karting is no different.

Consider though, what a single unified karting organization could offer. Consistent rules for each recognized national class. Consistent interpretaion of the rules (hopefully). Less competition for limited resources (participants, spectators, sponsors, etc) could mean more revenue routed for proper marketing and other visibility-enhancing activities.

And of course, if this national body was aligned w/ the FIA/CIK - a body that is truly international in scope - then we could start grooming our drivers to compete on that level.

With that in place there would be some hope that within my lifetime another American would stand as the World's Champion.

I would die a happier man.



Chaz Clover
http://www.kartmonster.com

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Originally posted by Brad Fultz:
I have a question, do you think that cik/fia helps with the success? they are the main sanctioning group in europe I thought??? If that is true why dont they jump the pond and start here so if you want to have a World Champ you can. Like the Superbowl Champs are calling themselves world champs wrong I dont think they beat the Rhien Fire to win.
Here we have so many different sanctioning groups, wka, ikf, skusa, 4 cycle 2 cycle and also the regional racing that goes on, if we had a unification of rules and scheduling in regions, where you could have good turnouts would be great. I would like some feedback on this cik/fia thing.

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[ August 14, 2001: Message edited by: Chaz Clover ]

[Marc Miller]

Larry-

That's what I said... go back and read it again. Pat ran 80cc when he "could".

MM

[Steve Rickman]

On this topic I agree with Colin, The Italians arent as difficult to deal with as you may think. In fact I know of a few American/Canadian drivers who have gone over there and done very well and could be doing what any of the top euro drivers are doing. In fact if you look at some of the top positions in the points standings look at the nationalities, Van der Garde(Holland) Vilander (Finland) Sugiyama (Japan) and even the Canadian Gelinas had good support. This shows that the Italian teams arent all "keeping it for themselves". People are people however the systems are not the same. Here in N/A we have no program, we cant decide what the premier form of racing is we have 40 different national champions. In Europe there is only one program to follow which makes it much easier to follow and for the drivers to excel. The point is North America is too much of a mix up and Europe is focussed on one thing and is more organised than we are.

[Jack Burroughs]

A lot of my origional reply was just IMHO but others brought a lot of valid and very good points that I never gave much thougt. then I said to myself "What about motorcycle racing?, the results there, over the years have been very different." Maybe we all look at other peoples racing with a jaundiced eye?

[Charlie Tackett]

But take a look at motorcycle racing. For the most part one major national organization, pro levels, amatuer levels, local racing, district racing, major support from the same players that are the big players in the world level competitions, support from outside the industry....etc, etc. Now compare that to karting and even open wheel racing in this country

[Rob Hogenmiller]

Charlie, Your post got the gears grinding and I was wondering are there any chassis manufacturers that produce a complete kart? Engine & Chassis.

With motorcycles two big differences in the pocket book compared to karting. Karting has one extra middle man and they don't produce the engines compared to motorcycles.

To buy a kart for most on the retail level 4-5 individuals will be making money on your kart. With motorcycles it's two.

Karting To Buy A Complete Chassis
4 Stops (If bought from one dealer retail)
Manufacturer>>>Importer>>>Dealer>>Dealer Buys Engine From Someone...Your ready to go.

5 Stops Retail
You buy the engine from a different dealer.

Motorcycle To Buy One Retail
Manufacturer>>>Dealer....Your ready to go.

I would think with all the little extra stops that a kart has to make to be race ready is effecting the overall price pretty heavily.

Sorry for being off topic, but was a natural follow on your post Charlie.

[Chad Stapleton]

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Originally posted by Rob Hogenmiller:
Charlie, Your post got the gears grinding and I was wondering are there any chassis manufacturers that produce a complete kart? Engine & Chassis.

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Rob, yes is the simple answer.
Yamaha, P.C.R., C.R.G., Dino, Solo, Ital System, PRD, etc, are a few manufacturers names that spring to mind, who will supply complete packages - kart and motor.
Although, like any "name" producer (eg Ford , Honda etc) , many of the component parts will be actually made by subcontractors.

[Colin Fleming]

Chad,

Actually CRG's engine department is seperate from the factory and is called MAXTER now. I think they realized that if
a seperate kart manufacturer wanted to run there engines example Tonykart/CRG/bridgestone that it just doesnt sound right...or does it?
colin

[bird]

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I was wondering are there any chassis manufacturers that produce a complete kart? Engine & Chassis.

Tonykart/Vortex
Topkart/Comer
Haase/Titan
CRG/Maxter
PCR/PCR
Italcorse/Italsistem
Lenzo/Stark