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Chuck Carmin
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 134
Location: United States, Michigan, Gladstone
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 Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 3:11 pm Post subject: LO206 > Honda Clone |
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Just an opinion, by the time you actually buy and asslemble a full box stock clone and safety items such as guards and flywheel, you are close or over the 459.00 LO206 motors, wich you can sell when worn and have a up to 3 year run time with just lapping new valves and springs. The racing at my club with the LO206 in adult heavy at 380 is VERY close. I have built a clone last year (and regret it sorry fellow Patriots!)and I just dont see why they are so popular(oh yeah they [i]start at 100 bucks,but cannot be raced at that safely or effectively with BS Clone rules.) Briggs is AMERICAN (or as close as you can get now a days) as well. You are supporting Chinse JUNK! (whichs is why our economy still is TANKING!) And STILL spending the same amount of money anyways. (I am a nobody of karting and this is my POV I am not associated with anybody just me and my wasted money on a clone and witnessing 206 racing)
Next time I race a 4 stroke it will be a LO206 from my expierence.
POINT OF RANT
IF YOUR TRACK IS LOOKING FOR CLOSE CHEAP RACING GO TO THE BRIGGS LO206!!!!!!Plus you can build up or start with JR and Go up or SR and go Limited Mod.
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1986
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Fri Jun 24, 2011 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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Cool Chuck,
I'm hoping to get a chance to run this year still. You guys are only 5 hours away from me and I'd love to check out the UP this summer, much better than heading south 
My schedule is pretty tight with opening up my new location but maybe in August I can get up there.
Thanks,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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charles hunter
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 733
Location: United States, California, anaheim
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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The Briggs motors are the most cost effective. I have a 206 and love it. BUT I also would check out the world formula. The 206 is around $450 but I know a guy who knows someone who has a friend who's girlfriends brother dated a guy that can get them for $750. How's it Flash  It seems there are way more karts in the WF motors than 206 
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------------------>DRSWAMP RACING INC<----------------- |
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Ken Olson
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 1019
Location: United States, Washington, Monroe
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| Posted: Sat Jun 25, 2011 6:55 pm Post subject: Clones.. |
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Thousands upon Thousands of them Clones running,racing at about every track available.. @ under 250.00.. who you trying to kid about "American" parts for the 206? Made in China like all the Briggs stuff now a days..read the box..
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Ken Olson
Pacific NW Tire Services
Major Racing's "Roll N Prep"
BRC Engineering 150RR |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1986
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:40 am Post subject: Re: Clones.. |
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| Ken Olson wrote: | | Thousands upon Thousands of them Clones running,racing at about every track available.. @ under 250.00.. who you trying to kid about "American" parts for the 206? Made in China like all the Briggs stuff now a days..read the box.. |
Hi Ken,
Briggs is a multinational company that builds stuff all over the world.
That said, they have a dedicated racing division that has it's own tooling for critical pieces. The LO206 is built in Wisconsin to very tight tolerances by a crew of dedicated employees. The company is headquartered in the US and profits are reinvested here. They address racers concerns and make changes to their products that improve them for racing. And they have incentive programs that give back to clubs running their products.
I build engines, am an authorized dealer for Briggs, Honda, and a whole bunch of other power equipment brands. I can tell you from a technical standpoint the Briggs products are worth every penny more than your clone. Take the carb, flywheel, ignition, fan shroud, nitrided exhaust valve, automotive style keepers, squeeze cast rod, upgraded hardware, etc. away from the Briggs and you'll still have a better engine. And, a used up LO206 is still worth more than a brand new clone....
But, the most important factor for racers is consistency across the program. I've talked with many racers who are frustrated with their local tracks clone tech rules. Tracks just half an hour apart that have such different requirements for clones that you'll need two different clone engines to race at both.
I don't think the original posters experiences are unique, especially in sprint racing where tech and durability issues are a bigger concern than dirt oval. And yes, the World Formula is probably a better fit for most sprint courses with long straights. The value for all these engines (including the clone) is reflected by the cost. Tracks should consider overall value of the program along with initial entry cost, a long lived motor with established classes is definitely a way to get and keep people in the sport. My first kart engine was a KT100, I think the Animal will have a similar run 
Cheers,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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Ken Olson
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 1019
Location: United States, Washington, Monroe
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:00 am Post subject: Clones.. |
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Believe me when I tell you.. I'm not a real clone lover... But, I do like the Honda design.
Even though the Clone specs are "all over the place" you have to admit the pricing is what the current rage is about and the reason there are so many people running them @ the track, which is a good thing.
You know what I'm putting together for sprint racing..
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Ken Olson
Pacific NW Tire Services
Major Racing's "Roll N Prep"
BRC Engineering 150RR |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1986
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 11:44 am Post subject: |
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The Honda (appropriated) OHV design isn't inherently any better than Briggs. The difference in materials and tolerances is significant though between clone motors and the LO206.
Run whatever gives you the best competition in your area. Just don't try to sell me on how much cheaper clone racing is. If everyone in your club was running a yellow bsp motor they built themselves, and you all agree not to start parts sorting, or buying builder prepared motors, or just flat out cheating, then it might be cheaper for a season.
For the engine only.
Transport, tires, fuel, oil, spare parts, entry fees, beer for your buddies.... That all costs the same
Cheers,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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charles hunter
Joined: 28 Apr 2007
Posts: 733
Location: United States, California, anaheim
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| Posted: Sun Jun 26, 2011 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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Whiskey for the men, beer for the horses
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swampwater smyth concurs "If you aint first, yer last."
------------------>DRSWAMP RACING INC<----------------- |
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Jim McMahon
Joined: 07 Apr 2007
Posts: 2658
Location: United States, St. Paul,
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:31 am Post subject: Re: LO206 > Honda Clone |
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| Chuck Carmin wrote: | | You are supporting Chinse JUNK![/b] (whichs is why our economy still is TANKING! |
Have you ever stopped for a moment to think exactly how much money is really lost to the "american economy" with these clones? Maybe its not worth getting upset about. Look at the bigger picture...
Option #1: Someone bolts on a clone, goes racing or playing. Whatever.
1) Couple of hundred bucks go to those evil Chinese.
2) Uncle sam gets his cut from the motor in import taxes and maybe sales tax
3) The American kart club club gets entry and test fees. After a couple of races and test days the amount spent in the US China.
4) The American kart dealer sells odds and ends and some spares.
Option #2: Same person doesn't think the LO206 is all that and would rather not race. Decides to buy a plasma TV or something. Other than import duty and a little retail markup, little stays in America and zero in karting.
There's no option three "person buys an LO206". The reason is that the vast majority of people appear to be in the bracket of 1 or 2. They dont want an LO206, for whatever reason.
Which option do you prefer? Its pretty obvious which is actually better for the US economy Look at the amount of people racing clones that are not interested in the LO206. Quit bitching about clones and be glad they are paying American entry fees, helping make American clubs sustainable so that you have somewhere to run that precious LO206.
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Karting Festival @ Blackhawk Farms June 1st-2nd. |
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John Matthews
Joined: 04 Dec 2004
Posts: 1986
Location: United States, Michigan, Williamsburg
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| Posted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: LO206 > Honda Clone |
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| Jim McMahon wrote: | | Chuck Carmin wrote: | | You are supporting Chinse JUNK![/b] (whichs is why our economy still is TANKING! |
There's no option three "person buys an LO206". The reason is that the vast majority of people appear to be in the bracket of 1 or 2. They dont want an LO206, for whatever reason.
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Huh????
Do you really have access to Briggs sales numbers?
I think the original post shows a level of frustration with what they were told clone racing would be like. Obviously the most expensive option is buying something that doesn't meet your expectations and then having to buy something else.
If that's what your local club offers then that's what you get but please don't tell me that $200 (assuming you actually build your own BSP engine) is a real determining factor in whether or not somebody can go racing. If your budget is that tight then maybe racing isn't the sport for you.
JMHO,
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John Matthews
Heartbeat Power, LLC. |
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Chuck Carmin
Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 134
Location: United States, Michigan, Gladstone
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| Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2011 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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I posted the origina, YOU CANNOT SAFELY OR LEGALLY RACE A CLONE FOR 200 BUCKS AS A NEW KARTER
You may be able to after you have parts to swap, but then its not so cost effective at a two to one rate either.
I also race Kt100's, the clone was a project I spent my OWN money on just to try something else, now Im seeing the lo206 results, I am just comparing my own expierence. Clone racing is not the way to go for budget racing!!! thats my opinion from acutally building one!
Spend bucks on a junk clone motor that may or may not be fast or last
(threw a retainer with not rev limiter, had to pull head after one race).
Or buy the Lo206(has rev limiter) wich are VERY CLOSE due to small batch builds. for a very dam close price. If a karter cannot afford the LO206 at 459, how can they clone race at a motor a year either? The tires alone wouldnt last more then that and cost more then the motor. COST is not the deter,mining factor however repeatability, reiliability, post use value, and Simplicity(no cams, changing spring retainers, removing cams, removing govenor, setting up pump.)
The idea of opening up a new motor is also daunting to a newbie as well.
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paul hir
Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 345
Location: United States, Pennsylvania, Erie
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Chuck Carmin wrote: | I posted the origina, YOU CANNOT SAFELY OR LEGALLY RACE A CLONE FOR 200 BUCKS AS A NEW KARTER
You may be able to after you have parts to swap, but then its not so cost effective at a two to one rate either.
I also race Kt100's, the clone was a project I spent my OWN money on just to try something else, now Im seeing the lo206 results, I am just comparing my own expierence. Clone racing is not the way to go for budget racing!!! thats my opinion from acutally building one!
Spend bucks on a junk clone motor that may or may not be fast or last
(threw a retainer with not rev limiter, had to pull head after one race).
Or buy the Lo206(has rev limiter) wich are VERY CLOSE due to small batch builds. for a very dam close price. If a karter cannot afford the LO206 at 459, how can they clone race at a motor a year either? The tires alone wouldnt last more then that and cost more then the motor. COST is not the deter,mining factor however repeatability, reiliability, post use value, and Simplicity(no cams, changing spring retainers, removing cams, removing govenor, setting up pump.)
The idea of opening up a new motor is also daunting to a newbie as well. |
Hi,
I don't understand why people are bashing the clones, if you don't race them then what do you care if others do?
$200 EC Birt Engine Package
$50 clutch
$250 you can race
The engine will still need to be maintained check the valve lashing, springs, change the oil. Locally tires can be had for free as we use, used tires and most if not all use the same tires set the whole season.
Nobody runs the L0206 at our track, but I am not going sit here any bash the engine and all the generations. People having fun and karting is what is important, too many people at the track forget that. |
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Max Wood
Joined: 19 Sep 2001
Posts: 704
Location: United States, New York, Rochester
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| Posted: Wed Jul 06, 2011 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I gotta agree with Paul. We moved 100% to 2-cycle when the Animals were being phased in. The clone kart count was decent at our track so I bought into it. $325 BSP engine setup from ARC + $50 clutch. This thing is light years ahead of the flathead as far as quality goes.
Are there "pick of the litter" go-fast parts - Yes. Will there be failures - Yes. Just as there are with flatheads, animals, kt100s, TaG, and any other kind of engine you race with. The difference is that you can pickup a new engine or parts for dirt cheap. It puts out more HP than my best flathead did back when I started karting and is fun to race.
People can complain that we're supporting a foreign workforce instead of the US, but I see a lot of US products on my clone kart. Not so much on my Yamaha karts.
Let's see...
Coyote
MCP
Noram
ARC
Shockwave (RIP)
RLV
Digatron
Douglas
Burris
Dyno cams
Horstman
Thor Oil
The Chinese only got about $50 out of all this. How much would the US companies get? What about the tire distributors and shops? I don't think the clone engine is doing anything to hurt US companies and karting. |
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Jeff Stamper
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Posts: 1414
Location: United States, Illinois, Plano
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| Posted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Chuck Carmin wrote: | I posted the origina, YOU CANNOT SAFELY OR LEGALLY RACE A CLONE FOR 200 BUCKS AS A NEW KARTER
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Well you cant race a LO206 for $200 either ! I have $450 in my clone package. Thats with the EC Birt motor, clutch, chain guard and mount.
At $469 for the LO206 with nothing on it, where is the comparison. That is not bashing the motor, just stating the obvious. If you have another issue with the class, now thats different. But price comparison is not a good starting place |
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Ken Olson
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 1019
Location: United States, Washington, Monroe
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| Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:18 am Post subject: Fun Clone "Blown" setup |
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Just a toy to play with, How about someone building an L206 Blower motor, turbo or nitrous motor so I can have someone to race this with?
Clone base engine(still standard bore 196cc's) from HF,ARC Rod,Raceseng Billet Flywheel,Matt Sachs Billet head, Blower off a Japanese commuter car,Tig welded home made 1.25" Stainless induction system with 24lb burst valve, Polaris pentagon fuel pump,DAP 34mm slide alky carb,DynoCams 270° duration cam(close to .400" lift w/roller rockers), Manton 1/4" pushrods, re-created loop header from a flatty, fully vented w/AN braded hoses and Pan evac system.. idles like a top Alcohol dragster... that famous surge, with the power going to a Horstman axle clutch 
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Ken Olson
Pacific NW Tire Services
Major Racing's "Roll N Prep"
BRC Engineering 150RR |
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