Heats vs One 30 minute race (125&80'2)

[Charlie Tackett]

Not Tilton, you just swear at people/call them names and now call them a liar. Boy what a fine example you yourself are setting!

Ed....I'm sorry, but the diffrence between 20min and 30min can indeed be affected by tire management, and compound selection. In fact I have heard others in these forums that run the larger diaplacment shifter classes use that very argument on numerous occassions for going to heats as oppossed to one long race. It's also my opinion that there is indeed a diferent driving style that is necessary for a 15-20 min race than for a 30 min race. Maybe not absolutely 100% of the time, but you also don't drive them the same all teh time either.

That method of scoring the two heats motocross fashiondoes indeed excessively punish the late entrants. Like you say, Saro, if Somebody starts 1 and finishes first, and we start 30th and finish 4th, and then we finish 1st and he second, he still wins! Unless you can do it like we did in bike racing...line us all up in a straight line so we all have a shot at getting to the first corner first, then it is going to penalize somebody. When given the opiton of running under a two heat system using that format vrs a 30 min race, I'd take my chance with the 30min race, at least you got a better shot at it because if you do manage to catch the guy, at least you will win, where in the two heat system, if you don't catch him the first heat, then you are pretty much screwed cause even if you catch him and win by 30sec in the second heat, he is still going to beat you!

[Marc Miller]

Charlie-

Easy fix... wherever you finish in the first heat, you do the math and punt all the guys you need to punt to win overall.

Seriously though folks (comedic pun intended). Those series that cannot afford timing systems are most likely club events anyways, so running 2 heats or 30 minutes really won't matter, like Ed said, the fast guys will figure out a way to win anyways.

For series that DO have timing and scoring, QUALIFYING solves any problems and ELIMINATES pea picking strategy. For both a 30 minute race and a heat race, you still have to pea-pick as some of you explain (I think Saro did).... so my question is, in heat one I had to start in the back... couldn't make it to the front in the 15 or 20 minute race so I finish 5th out of the lead draft... it doesn;t matter anymore if I get a second shot at it, because the people starting in front still have an advantage whether you run 2 races or one. If you are going to have 2 heats, then the first one is unscored. That is fair. If you don;t have a true scoring/timing system, then run a qualifying heat, but make it an actual heat, 15 minutes or less to save time, then run a 25-30 minute feature. If you DO have a scoring system, run a 10 minute, 2 lap qualifying session after practice, then line up where you qualifid. There.. everyone is happy, problem solved, love thy neighbour, god bless us all, merry christmas, kuanza, chanuka, etc etc.

Marc Miller

[Tim Doll]

quote:

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Originally posted by Roy Harris:
if I remember correctly we ran 30 min races in the past and switched to the 20 min heats to get the racers used to that format for the RRGN this year at PIR. I think the plan was to go back to the 30 min races after the RRGN. Probably Greg Bevans decision to make.

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Yes, I'm still following this thread (although I don't care much for the direction it has taken). I've been traveling (which was complicated somewhat by the happenings on the East Coast), and my internet access somewhat limited.....

You are correct - we switched to 20 minute heats for the 125s only at the Portland races so people could "practice" for the GN. I expect we will run a 30 minute race at the Sept. 22-23 race at Bremerton, and probably at the Sept. 29-30 Portland race, but the final call is Greg's.

As for what we do next year, that will be decided at the Gold Cup Conference in November. The reality is, as coordinator, I don't get to make the rules, I just try to make sure they are fairly enforced. That doesn't stop me from having opinions though .

[Debbie Kuntze]

I want to thank everyone who gave me their preferences and opinions either here or privately. I got about the same number of responses privately as were posted here.

Reminder, only you can put the emotion into what you are reading as you have no way of knowing the tone the writer tried to set in these forums. We don't have spell and grammer check and sometimes without proper puncuation an innocent sentence can spark a fire in someone. But, that is what starts some of the great debates that can give new insight to a situation. So again thanks to all, Debbie Kuntze

[Christopher Ragan]

enduro = 1 hour

[Kevin Callahan]

Charlie, Don't get me wrong. I like you. Your posts are almost always right on and written with a touch of whimsy that I find amusing. However, there is a fault in your logic on this matter.

You say you despise NASCAR for their "debris on the track" yellows, You also state that if someone runs away from you and hides during a road race that it is up to them to work harder and go faster. I wholeheartedly concur.

That is precisely what the 2 heat system does. It gives you the opportunity to tweak your kart and go faster inthe 2nd heat. If you do, then it's a whole new ball game. If they dont, then Charlie and company will pull away yet again in the second heat--no harm, no foul.

In conclusion, I would say that the 2 heat system rewards initiative instead of laziness as your posts on this matter suggest.

Regards, Kevin

[Rob Hogenmiller]

Seems like it's a matter of preference.

If your faster logic supports a 30 minute race.

If your slower it supports two heats or finals that are shorter in time.

I would say those would probably be the most determining factors, but there so many more that to say one way is better than the other is like saying Coke is better than Pepsi or vice versa.

To me I could care less (Unless I'm racing in front of fans). Put me in two races or one I'm still going to try my best. As far as chasing points for a championship there is no advantage or disadvantage to having it split up or one race. A race is a race is a race.

If you have fans I would say it would be courtesy to provide a One Race format opposed to having two heats. Or even two Finals would be Ok, just like F2000 or Skip Barber Formula. Just so the fans know who won, In Reality it didn't make a difference if it was a Heat or Two Finals, but perceptually it might. You also may have Two winners potentially on the day instead of one. If your after a championship it doesn't make a difference if you call it a Heat or Final.

[ September 23, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Hogenmiller ]

[Dave Stevens]

quote:

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Originally posted by Debbie Kuntze:
I
Reminder, only you can put the emotion into what you are reading as you have no way of knowing the tone the writer tried to set in these forums. We don't have spell and grammer check and sometimes without proper puncuation an innocent sentence can spark a fire in someone.

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I think it's noble you're trying to temper the tone on this thread. It's obvious to me that some on this thread have set out on a personal attack, which in my opinion was not justified. People don't necessarily have to agree, but they don't have to be insulting just because another doesn't hold the same opinion.

As for spell check and grammar, it's not the fault of the medium that some people lack, or fail to use a basic high school implementation of proper written communication skills. People have existed for decades without computers to prop up an otherwise poor execution of the written word.

The best spell checker is a basic education and a dictionary.

Just to keep it on topic, I favor a single 30 minute race.

Dave

[Ken Johnson]

Man, this thread is truly amazing. After skimming through the responses it seems Paul Tartaglia is the only one that's gotten to the heart of the issue. The question isn't Do you want to run one or two races? Nor is it who has a better chance at winning in what format.
The real issue is for all the shifter people that want to keep adding new classes there just isn't time to do so and still run two heats.
In a couple of the laydown sportsman races I've run this year I've had a problem in the first few minutes of the race. Should I Start campaigning that we break all races up into 2 heat races? After all, I didn't win those two.
I can't fault anyone's desire to run twice as many races, heck we're all racers right? But, try to look at it from the standpoint of the other racers, the officials, score keepers and corner workers.

[Gary Robinson]

Well, it seems there is vocal opinion on the subject, while no one has stated the reason two heats were instuted to begin with. Fuel capacity and tyre wear. Especially in the Southwest and West, track temps and tyre wear (safety) are of concern.

Traditional Roadracers are apalled at heat races and any sit-ups. Geography plays an important role here, the east still has a fair contingent of traditional roadrace karts. If it was not for sit-up shifter, road racing would be non-existant if the SW. W, And NW. The upper Midwest and the East have the advantage of having tracks that attract laydowns and full-bodied sit-ups, but not every area has a Road America. Elsewhere tracks shorter,are hard to come by and expensive, hard to book.

Do not get me wrong, I really like laydowns, we were some of the last Junior laydowns around. If we retreat to the past, who will pay the bills?

BTW, most all regional type racing is Europe is based on two heats, Supertourer, Formula whatever, etc.

It sure is alot easier to run an event with only one 30 min, maybe that's why some poeple want it. We'll put in the work.

Question: Why are non-shifter poeple making rules for shifter classes?

Answer: At the last IKF meeting there was only two poeple in the room that owned one.
So whose there to make the rules and give input?

Gary Robinson

[Charlie Tackett]

Kevin, Obviuosly, some seem to have taken my comments to mean others were, as you say lazy. That is not what I mean ( no mater how I say this, somebody is going to take it wrong!) is that some have unreasonable expectations in relation to the amount of effort put forth to reach a goal. No I suppose that some may take that as calling them lazy, but what I am referring to is things like, say practice days.

Virually every race up here is a three day event with Friday being a practice day. I would estimate only about 1/3rd and definetly less than 1/2 of our class is ever there for that practice day. We have never missed one of them. To all those who come only on race day for two 10min practice sessions and try to accomplish what we do in a full day of practice, they are already at a disadvantage. DO they not come because they have to work, can't afford it, or whatever, I don't know. But when somebody shows up and is rushing thru registration/pre-tech, asking what gear to put on and trying to finish getting the kart assembled inorder to get out in practice, then IMHO, the have to some degree, an unresonable expectation of being a competitive front runner. Yet, more often than not they are the ones to make the complaints about those who are running well. Most of those who are there all the time see the effort others put into it.

That doesn't necessarily mean they are lazy, they just may not be putting in the effort needed to run up front, for whatever reason. Maybe they work 60hrs a week or maybe they can't get a weekday off, but that is not our fault and there is nothing that I can do about it. We play by the rules, use every opportunity to better ourselves. If others don't, for whatever reason, why am I responsible for that and why should we reduce our efforts to accomadate them?

A lot of people make sacrifices to race and put a lot of effort into their program. I drive an '85 Peugeot that cost me less than a 100cc chassis 4yrs ago. We tow with an '82 jeep wagoneer and it hauls an '88 Wells Cargo trailer. Sacrifices I make inorder to be able to afford things like the extra practice fee and an extra day in a hotel, etc. Some are not willing to do such things. Success is often related to the amount of sacrifice and effort one is willing to put forth, regardless of the endeavor.

[Debbie Kuntze]

Before there were 125 rules for RR, SCK just started running the heats so those that wanted to go road racing could do so. Size of the fuel tanks was a consideration, but so was "giving them want they wanted". At the time it was pretty much a direct crossover, just come road racing.

My reason for asking the question was to get an idea how popular one vs the other was and why. And yes, there are lots of reasons as to why one is good and then why the same one is bad. This goes hand in hand with my other question about what classes and how many classes does someone race on a normal racing weekend. IKF does have the proposal to reduce classes and in that vein, the idea of switching to on race vs heats was brought up. Some of you who responded are probably not IKF members. But, you could be potential customers to the various clubs who host races and do run IKF sanctioned events. So all opininons matter to me.

I don't race 125's or 80's, but now I have gathered information, "listened" to the reasonings and am better informed because of this forum. Hopefully even more will respond either here or to me privately. Thanks again. Debbie K