Heats vs One 30 minute race (125&80'2)

[Roy Harris]

A question for Tim Doll if your still reading this thread ? This is my second season in Road Race with PKA, and if I remember correctly we ran 30 min races in the past and switched to the 20 min heats to get the racers used to that format for the RRGN this year at PIR. I think the plan was to go back to the 30 min races after the RRGN. Probably Greg Bevans decision to make. Some of the PKA laydown racers were/are upset that the sprinters get a break on entry fees even though with 2 heats they get as much track time ( 40 min ) as the laydown racers ( 45 min ).

[Ray Knight]

I am glad everyone has taken time to post on this topic as I am the one responsable for this proposal to return 125's and 80's to a 30 minute race.When we want heats we go to the sprint track.Roadracing means Endurance racing putting an emphisis on preperation,setup,strategy and even a little tire management.The 2 heat format has created overly agressive driving and lets face it if you DNF the first heat you are running the second heat for fun unless a 12th place finish is your thing.

[Charlie Tackett]

Well, I'm sorry, Terry, but I still stand by my words. Use the reason that you get mnnore track time, etc. But when people start using the reason that it makes for closer racing and bunches the field back up so more people can be competitive, then I still believe that that is a bunch of garbage! What is this socialist racing??? Handicapping?? WHen you played football, did one team have to make 5yds for a 1st down and the other ten?? In basketball, does one team shoot at a 10ft high basket and the other a seven??

No of course not, so why should racing in this class be any different? We all run under the exact same rules, we all have the potential for the same opportunity. Like I said, I'm sorry that some can't keep up, but slowing or stopping the race to make some more competitive is ludicrous!

In HS, I played footbal...a line man at 6'1" 165. If I was across from a 225 lb 6'3" opponent, I didn't go to the ref and ask that they tie one of his arms behind his back. Yet to use the argument that this allows the field to be bunched back up and lets others be competitive, is IMHO, the exact same thing.

This is racing, it's a competitive sport. I'm sorry that some aren't competitive, as I stated I was in my original response. I'm sorry I wasn't 7'1" to with a mean hook shot, too. But they don't put heigth limits on NBA players to make fair for us short guys that can't jump, so tell me why in racing some feel when we are all under the same rules, they still need to do something to make it close competition for everybody? If you think it is arrogant that I feel those who work harder, practice more, have more experience, should be rewarded for their efforts without beeing handicapped then there is nothing I can about it. If you think it is arrogant that I tell someone, if they want to run up front, then work harder for it, I don't know what to tell you. I was raised to believe that if I wanted something, If I wanted to get ahead, I worked harder for it. WHy is racing any different than anything else in life?? If it is mean to point that out to somebody, then so be it.

[Marc Miller]

Here is a quick solution for those who don;t like to pea pick for starting positions and don;t like the 30-minute format for that reason.

the MG Tires CES series that runs in the midwest and east coast qualifies all the shifter entries after morning practice. It takes about 10 minutes and there is no gridding problems... just spacing them apart.

Solves that concern and still allows for a true race.

MM

[Debbie Kuntze]

Marc and everyone, The count includes the private emails I am also getting. So don't think the forum is the only ones being counted. Some prefer to post their opinions privately.

[Debbie Kuntze]

Another question, why is it taking some so long to run a race day schedule? If it's IKF we all run about the same amount of classes plus throw in the local option stuff. I have to brag about the guys doing grid and tow for SCK. We rarely have any down time.(Had one problem on Aug 26th, won't name names, but we lost the tow guy in the bathroom and had to find the back up driver ) Plus a big brag to the drivers, I have thrown one red in two years. Deb K

[Erik Frank]

I prefer two heats becuase it gives me the opportunity to blister twice as many tires!

-erik

[Terry Tilton]

When one team scores in football, guess what, they kick the ball off to the other team. I guess Charlie would have it so that once you score, you keep getting the ball untill the other team stops you on downs. Yeah, thats fair and fun to watch. I deleted the rest of what I typed because I realize how pointless it is to argue with someone in cyberspace and in the big picture, this isnt important enough to get pissed off about.

[Charlie Tackett]

No I would not, But I suppose from your attitude that you would let the team that hadn't scored and was behind keep the ball until they scored, after all it seems you think that would be fair. SHouldn't they be allowed to have the same points?? Heaven forbid someone would win and someone else would lose! Why don't we just go and give everyone first place points automatically, forget this racing/competition stuff, and then just go out and drive around for 20 or 30 minutes just for fun and make everyone happy.

I am sorry, but I am a littel sensitve, and truthfully, fed up with some of the winers this year (no one on the list). We have run exceptionally well. In the first 7 races, our record was 4-1sts, 2-2nd, and 2 DNFs. Set a couple of track records and was winning by 15-25 sec margins. Guess what? I don't have enough fingers to count all the accustaions of cheating! From running an RS engine to a big bore kit, to special internal gears and rations, hot fuel, etc. You name it we have been accussed of it. We have had our engine torn down repeatedly, bore, stroke, crank, intake tract all checked several times over. (it's the same engine we have run for 4yrs now with a new top end.) Then the claim was we only win because we registered early and start up front...as if the opening of registration is a secret date!! Or its the body work we run. Or its because Ted is a skinny kid. The statements that we spend big bucks and its the $$ beating them.( same basic engine for 4 yrs...and our high priced '82 Jeep Wagon pulling our little '88 Wells Cargo are defintely a big advantage!)

Never mind that I started racing motorcycles over 35 yrs ago and am familar with tuning these motors/carbs. Never mind that Ted got his first yard kart when he was about 6 and first race kart at 8. Never mind that he has been racing since then and has raced everything from briggs to 820s, to Yamahas, to Controlled, to shifters. Never mind he has raced long tracks since he was 12. Never mind that he has raced in probably over 200 road races. Never mind he used to stay out in practice until he had broken, bleeding blisters on his hands. Never mind that he spent countless hours in the off season practicing on a computer driving simulator. Never mind that either one of use have always done everything we could to help our competitors from my helping their tuning, to Ted giving them pointers on lines,braking points, etc. Never mind he has raced shifters on long tracks for the past five years. Never mind when he was a jr he finished 2nd at the IKF RR GNs.Never mind he was MSES season Champ 2 yrs ago, and would have been last yr but for a 1st lap DNF at RA. None of that appears to account to anything. Some that have only raced for 4-5 races a yr for a couple of years get upset that they can't run with us!! That the only reason we run well has to be some kind of cheating.

SO at the 2nd Grattan race, we didn't register unitl late friday. Grid #22. In to the lead by the end of lap 2...but DNF'd. At VIR, our grid # was 17 out of 23. We ended up winning by 22 sec. At Summit, we ran CIK and weighed in over 20 lbs over what we could have come in at. Having never been there and no Friday practice we ended up 4th on Sat and on Sunday, 3rd, with the top three finishing under 0.3 seconds apart. We could no pass the body work karts on the straights, had to draft them...and guess where the finish line is.

SO when the comment was made to run two heats so the field could be bunched back up and make someone else be more competitive, it struck a nerve that has been worn thin this year. We have run heavy, we have run CIK, we have registered late, yet we have still run up front. We have offered to even trade karts with someone! Now somebody wants to stop the race to let others catch up and be competitive?!?!? What next? if the same fast guys still win, make them run a 5-speed box or better yet, make them run an 80 in the 125 class???

I am not going to make any apology for running up front. We didn't just throw a kart out on the track one day and expect to go fast. We have worked hard and long at it. I've tuned these motors for over 30yrs and Ted probably has the amount of road race experience that the average road racer would take 15 or more years to accumulate. If somebody has difficulty running up front, then work harder at it, it is that simple, that is what we did, and that is what anyone with the desire can do if they wish. If that is arrogant and mean, then so be it!

[Saro Marcarian]

Charlie-

I don't think anyone wants to take your advantage and hard work away. I think the thought is to remove certain random or arbitrary DISADVANTAGES.

Imagine one day that you have a family event scheduled on a race day and decide you're not going to show up. The Friday before the race the family event gets cancelled for whatever reason so now you can show up and race. Since Ted registered late, he starts in the back.

Now, let's say that some SKUSA hotshoe (let's call him Bern Vert) had registered near the top of the running order.

Ted starts in the back of a 40 kart grid while Bern starts in the front. Both guys get drafting partners and both guys crews (Charlie Tackett and Speid Vert) have tuned their equipment to the max and are driving to the max on the same tires. Due to NOTHING competative or skill based, Ted will not be able to get within striking distance.

Now, maybe you always enter 6 months early and Ted always lands on the front 3 rows for the start but imagine the scenario if you couldn't. That's all that anyone here is trying to get at.

Personally, I think it's fantastic that you can take an old motor that everyone SWEARS is illegal and run a SMALLER carb than everyone thinks you should and that you go and spank their little bottoms! However, it is plain not FAIR that a non-skill type of determination can have such a huge impact on a very skilled driver's finish - and maybe some day that driver will be Ted.

If I wanted to gamble, I'd drive to Vegas.

-Saro

[Ed Llorca]

I would like to point out two things that are fact and should not be subject to discussion.

1) Unfair is unfair - period. If a rule a application thereof is unfair or biased that is wrong whether it favors you or not (see Saro's post above)

2) 30 minutes is NOT a manly length of time as some imply and does NOT an enduro make considering there is no tire management, no pit stops, motors l;ast tthis time at full tilt and at least among the fit no fatigue issues. Look at any other class of car running what is considered an enduro an you'll find race time of 3-24 hours.

So lets not hear that 30 min is an enduro and 2x20 is not.

I would add that the fast guys usually win regardless of the format so I am not sure if they need to get so excited about this.

[Charlie Tackett]

Saro, What I intitially addressed was a very specific issue and a reson given by some for racing in two heats....bunching the karts back up basically to keep everyone closer and make some more competitive. That was it. Had nothing at all to do with the gridding. It was about reasons for running two heats.

Obviously, if we have registered as late as Friday afternoon at practice, then we don't always pre-register. Heck we have started as far back as 53rd that I can recall.

The gridding issue is a whole 'nuther ball game than the two heat one. Seems I recall somebody some time back posting that someplace runs two heats, yet grids both in the same order...not gridding the 2nd by finish of the first.

The gridding issue IMHO,is indeed a matter of time constraints....as is the two heat deal. I've seen qualifying run where they try to send out karts at well spaced intervals so drafting is less significant. Takes a while if you got 50+ karts. I've also seen open large group qualifying, where everyone goes out for a ten minute session together. Then someone complains that there were four guys that worked out a pre-planned 4 kart draft and they got stuck out there running by themselves.

If the tiem is available, then it is great, but often it is not. The only other alternative is the old pea-pick method, but again this can also be a time constraint issue if you are at an event were there are 4-500 total entrants. THe pre-registration and gridding by that method allows much of registration/gridding to be completed prior to the actual race. I also think that order of entry gridding is less significant in a 30" race than in a 15-20 minute heat.

It's been my observation that no matter what you do, somebody is going to find something to complain about.

[Saro Marcarian]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charlie Tackett:
Saro, What I intitially addressed was a very specific issue and a reson given by some for racing in two heats....bunching the karts back up basically to keep everyone closer and make some more competitive.

---

But that's EXACTLY part of the reason why some folks want 2 races...

If the club can't afford timing equipment, you can't qualify the field. Much of the 2 race argument is that the first race should server only as a qual heat. Silly IKF rules SCORE both races but base the starting order of race 2 on the finish order of race 1.

Example: You and Ted come to SoCal to run at Streets of Willow. Lo and behold, there's Bern and his dad who LIVE in SoCal and registered 6 months in advance. You registered Ted when you arrived.

1st heat: Ted starts 30th, Bern starts 3rd. Bern Finishes 1st, Ted finishes 4th.

2nd heat: Bern Starts 1st, Ted Starts 4th. Ted Finishes 1st, Bern Finishes 2nd.

Bern won - under current IKF scoring. THAT, my friend, SUCKS OSTRICH EGG. If they were running a single 30 and since Bern and Ted are equal drivers with equal equipment and equal tuners (now you KNOW this is only an example! ) Ted likely would not have been able to get within striking distance of Bern. Ted would have been bitten by the arbitrary start - despite the fact that his exceptional driving would have gotten him as far up as fourth.

The problem is (perceived to be) alleviated by the 2 heat thing IF the first heat is NOT scored but merely used to determine start order of the 2nd heat / main / whatever you wanna call it.

Depending on what rules you run, it isn't possible to seperate the multi-heat thing from the start order thing. THAT'S the point many of us are trying to make.

-Saro

[ September 13, 2001: Message edited by: Saro Marcarian ]

[Terry Tilton]

Tacket-
If you are as good as you say you are in your LONG WINDED listing of credentials, then you'll figure out a way to get to the front no matter how the race is organized. I just think that two races are better than one, you think one is better than two. I just dont sound like a pompus jerk when stating my case.
I'm done.

[David Cole]

Everyone has two heats, one on Saturday, one on Sunday. If you do bad on Saturday, do better on Sunday. If you give heats to one class, you have to give heats to all the other classes. 30 minutes is not a long time but it is the maximum time that a shifter can go due to fuel. Because of the the number of classes and time constraints at some tracks, you can't give eveyone two heats. So, why not run a race each day for each class to the maximum minutes that they can run, Briggs at 20min, Sprints at 30 min and Enduros at 45. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.