Heats vs One 30 minute race (125&80'2)

[David Cole]

Charlie wrote:Maybe SKUSA should start having intermissions in their ProMoto Finals so somebody might be able to keep up with Scott?????? Say, a full course yellow ewvery 5 laps? Would that keep it close?

Good point. I feel with any type of club racing, which is what most of the kart racing around the US is, you should treat each class the same. No special treatment for anyone.

Here in the DMSS, we have a 2x2 rolling start for the 80 and 125 due to safety factors with other classes starting with them, now they are by themselves and we continue it because the majority of teh racers want to start that way and spectators enjoy watching it. I don't agree with it since we are singling out one class. Why can't Sprint Yamaha have rolling starts, or any other class that runs. So if you give heats to the 80 and 125, why not give heats to the Briggs, which we used to do. They can only run 20 minutes. At least 80 and 125 can run 30 minutes...
...Well, at least some. Right Charlie


Hey Marc, when don't you think you can win

[Tim Doll]

quote:

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Originally posted by David Cole:
There are no do-overers in racing. Practice is the time to tune your kart. I get better results because people can't finish the 30 minutes. It is a test of your equipment and driving ability.

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Very well put. If you want to run multiple races, run multiple classes! In any other race, you watch the finishers cross the finish line, and you know who finished where (including the formats of most sprint programs that, even with heat races, have winner take all finals). But NO, in the IKF road race moto classes, no one know who finished where until you do all the math of combining the results of seperate heats!

As far as nothing happening after the first ten minutes - that is total BS. I normally run 45 minute races (and occasionally an hour) and I have often improved position in the last 15 minutes of the race (and sometimes lost positions). At the IKF RR Grands, we ran 1 hour races. In the Controlled Heavy race, I made two passes for position in the final 15 minutes - in Controlled Light I made 3 passes for position in the final 15 minutes (all against karts that where running strong, not because they were suffering mechanical troubles). Because I know how to conserve the equipment and tires, I frequently move up late in the race.

So you take your self out on the first lap because of bone headed move, or suffer a mechanical failure? TOUGH! That's racing! Every one else deals with it, why should the moto classes be different?

In the northwest, we have long given the sit-up classes a break on entry fees because they "get less track time". Well, if we use the heat format, they actually get more track time than the (45 minute) laydown classes (when you figure in set-up time for two heat races) and we will eliminate their price break.....

Now, would you rather run two 30 minute races for two trophies? Or for just a couple dollar less run two 20 minute races for one trophy that no one knows who won until the scorers do all the math. As I said in an earlier post, why is it that in sprints we have gone to winner take all finals, but in road race we have adopted the antiquated sprint system of equally weighted heat races?

Tim

[ September 11, 2001: Message edited by: Tim Doll ]

[Ed Llorca]

Deb
I see it as two heats twice the fun. I like the 20 min heats and would preer 30 min heats even. I feel that 15 is getting short. Everyone makes valid points for both heat and single formats. I am curious though, who is bringing this issue to the table, shifter drivers that are unhappy or other class drivers that are messing where they shouldn't?

[Charlie Tackett]

Deb, I wouldn't expect you to get any kind of consensus nationwide on this. There are too many other factors involved. Through out the many discussions, it is obvious that in the SW and West coast, your events are populated primarily by crossover drivers who want to keep it as much like their sprint racing as possible. East of the Mississippi, these classes are dominated by dedicated road racers and cross overs a small in #. Many do not come from sprint, but come up from clutch kart road racing.

In addition, percent of entries is vastly different. I have heard #s like 60-70 percent of your racers at times being sprint shifters. Around here, it is more like 20% or even less than 10%!! At the WKA National at VIR, I believe there were a total of 43 125 sprint entries out of over 500 total. We didn't even run alone, but with some Yamaha sprinters. At RA, there were around 120 125 sprint entries....out of close to 1000 total!

As Tim pointed out, and as you are well aware, track time is not all you have to consider...it's gridding, pick-up (red flags, too), that have to be allotted. Most schedules back here are full with our class being the only race group that is composed of a single class. All others run multiple classes. THere is simply not enough time in the day to ad in another grouping, especially if the are to run alone and not combined with other classes. It also would not be a wise move for all the organizations back here to cater to one group, even though it may be the largest single class, that is still only 10-20% of the entrants. I believe the other 80-90% would complain loud and long if their racing were cut short to accomadate this one group and rightfully so.
However, if you only have 120-170 entries adn 70% are sprint shifters, then giving them more track time by running heats or whatever would be logical and do-able.

SO the bottom line is regardless of opinion, what will work and be feasible in your local may not be possible at all in others. If we go out west to run with all your crossover guys, we will run your format. If you came back east to run with our road racers, they will have to run our format. WOn't get a national consesus on this issue.

[Debbie Kuntze]

Charlie and all:
I think you are figuring out my main purpose here. That is the "Reasons" to have it one way or another and not necessarily the vote one way or another. I do know about the extra gridding, etc. involved. (That second heat is usually a pain to get everyone up on time too!)

Actually those for two heats have ranged all over the country. Those for the 30 minutes are from Michigan and the Northwest (1 OR and 1 WA). So it isn't an east coast, west coast thing. That is also sort of what I wanted to know.
Deb K

[Dale Nickos]

Granted I'm a rookie to Karting..(Love Enduro's by the way)...I feel that an enduro Is just that...An ENDURO...
I've been in the IRL since 95 and the reason people like Team Menard, or Kelly Racing didnt win every race when they were the fastest out there..Is that You have to finish, and if there were 2 100 mile races...it would be more intresting..
I think Tire management is a much bigger factor in longer races and it makes it more challenging..

Either way I want to race...The 30 min races are better if you have solid preperation of your Kart...if not It doesnt matter how fast you are for the first 25 mins...Ya got to finish..

My 2¢ worth
DN

[Marc Miller]

Debbie-

Please don't assume that since 3 people from michigan agree on a 30 minute schedule and one person from Florida oppose means anything.

Agreeing with Charlie, I will doubt you will get enough of a consensus from people on the list. Guido, from FL is an accomplished sprinter, but RARELY has an opportunity to run road races, in Florida there is one or two tops and it is run as a regional series with nearly no dedicated road racers.

Sean, from MD runs many WKA events and enjoys road racing formats... but he gets tired easily so a 30 minute race won't suit him (hehe..sorry Sean, just kiddin).

The fact is that we consistently get 30-50 shifters in ALL of the road racing series in the midwest and north east midwest. There are road racing series that are STAND alone and not affiliated with IKF and WKA that get numerous entries. I still look at the Road America race as a Badger Club event rather than a WKA event because WKA made a deal to "piggy-back" with that series. They received a 1000 entries long before WKA ran there.

As for the difference in formats, it comes down to the perception that folks will get a "second chance" in a second heat. Where the saying that 2 races are better than one may be true, when you run 2 races, and combine points, I simply do not agree. I always felt the heat race formats were starange for IKF RR because a clearly dominant driver can win the first race then get punted, break etc and have a ruined day. Where I give no sympathy for him breaking or getting punted as it is part of racing, I feel that a guy who ran around in 4th both times shouldn't win a GN because he finished both races. Consistentcy is great to win championships.... I am counting on it this year to win one myself, but the fact is that drivers should get one shot at the race after days of practice and qualifying. 30 minute races allow top drivers to seperate themselves from guys that are just hanging on and showcase kart set-up, preperation, driving ability and tire conservation (very important in road racing shifters). 15 minute heats allow slower drivers to hang in there, which is great, but if they can hang in for 15 minutes, then they should be able to hang on for 30 too! THAT is impressive to me.

So, before you say that the heat format is more popular over the country, try to look at the number of road racers there are in the US, where they are at and what they think. I guarantee there are more road racers in the midwest then the rest of the country combined and CERTAINLY more on the East Coast than west coast. As Charlie said, in the East it is a 30 minute format and for many of us, I explained the reasons for that. Charlie had a good point regarding gridding and scheduling too that I never even considered.

I would like to hear why the heat format is better, other than the reasonaing that it is more exciting, because I am certainly not sold on that one.

MM

[Charlie Tackett]

Dale, you should have come to Putnam for the 150!

Now that was an endurance race! Pit stop strategy..when to pit, how fast Ted could shut it off and get out of the seat and how fast I could fuel it with the quick fuel jug. THen he gets back in a hard fast push. Talk about tire management! We had a full set mounted ready to go, made a short stand that set teh kart knee high, four speed wrenches, complete extra sets of lugs. All set up to do a 4-tire change and refuel at once....but he managed to get that set of yellows to last the whole time.

He ran consistently about 2 sec off his fastest times there, but ran consistently within about a .5-.7 sec lap time margin. Tire and equipment conservation and fuel mileage. Probably some driver conservation, too! Water pac set-up so he could "drink 'n drive"

Now that was enduro racing! All we need is throw a lighting coil on these CRs and were ready to race thru the night.

[Saro Marcarian]

I believe there are multiple issues at work here...

FAIRNESS:

If there is no qualifying session, run 1 qualifying heat (unscored) which determines the start order of the main (scored). A single long race may make it impossible for a 2 drivers of equal skill who were seperated by non-qualified start order to ever race.

SUPERBIKE:

Those guys run 2 seperate races. 2 starts, 2 finishes, 2 sets of scores... Kinda cool... Some people just like 2 races more than 1. I think those guys are having fun...

LONG TRACK or ENDURO?

Everyone who keeps calling it Enduro racing - maybe that's not what we're doing... To ME, an endurance race is longer than 30 minutes, anyway. Like I've said MANY times, you can run an ENDURO (multiple hours) on a SHORT (under 1 mile) ROAD RACE track in a sit-up kart. That's an enduro race.

Why not compromise and alternate between formats at different events?

My key concerns are fairness (an IKF issue - maybe not a WKA issue). Most other things are preference / religion.

I say mix it up and keep the racers on their feet...

-Saro

PS - I'm not opposed to an Enduro format... I've often contemplated slapping some bodywork and a big tank on my kart and running the 45 minute races...

[Paul Tartaglia]

The issue really is not one of racer preference but of logistics. It is getting difficult to keep adding Shifter classes with 2 heats to existing roadrace schedules. In the SWRA we run (2) 20 min heats for 125 lt, 125hvy, 80 Sr, F.I.C.E, & (2) 15 min heats for 80Jr each day. Currently we combine the F.I.C.E. w 80 SR because of the class sizes. This is about to change since each class is big enough now to cause problems for the others. When you factor in the pre-grid time & post race pick-up and tech, each heat takes about 40-45 minutes. Our classes are so big that we cannot combine them safely without affecting the other class's race. The issue becomes scheduling them all on the track along with all the other classes. Race tracks in this area charge for track useage "overtime" if we are on the track after 5:00PM.($300-$500 per hour). In the Fall, daylight becomes an issue.

To keep the current format as the classes with 2 heats grow, practice time will be lost which may PO the other non-shifter competitors.

I've run both ways and really don't care. Each one poses a challenge and takes a specific strategy to win.

BTW...Small gas tanks were the original reason why the the 2 heat format was instituted. Todays larger tanks can easily run 30 min or more.

[Greg Yocom]

I used to think that the 2 heat deal was the way to go, but it was all that I knew. After running a 1 heat race, I found out that it sure was nice to be able to actually leave the track before 8pm. For the one man team, it always seemed to take more time to prep the kart for 2 race heats, not to metion, always being the first goup to take the track(heat 1) and the last group to finish racing(heat 2). There also seemed to be a problem of gridding the shifter field twice a day, then throw in a couple of red flags for the heavies. In the last 18 IKF 2 heat days, I cannot remember being finished before 7pm. It is also quite disturbing to not know the cumulative point total for the day. It sometimes would take a week or two by the time the volunteers had calculated and posted the results. How did you do? I don't know, I will tell you in 2 weeks. Hey Erik, I always knew that you were a cheater.

[Sean Robbins]

quote:

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Originally posted by Marc Miller:
Sean, from MD runs many WKA events and enjoys road racing formats... but he gets tired easily so a 30 minute race won't suit him
MM

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Yeah, that's me. I start strong, but somewhere a few minutes into the race have a senior moment and forget what I'm doing, and then drive around the track in circles because I'm too stubborn to stop and ask for directions!

At least I don't leave my left turn signal on!

[Greg Maxwell]

I'm agree with Erik! I have run both styles (IKF-SWRA-2/20 mins.& WKA-Big South-1/30 min.)(these are both Road Race only groups)I like the 2/20 min. format because it takes the "I entered before you, nanee-nanee-bou-bou" out of the equation. In the second race you start out in the order you finished the first race (qualifing, sort-of). I also understand time restraints (if all classes wanted to go to the 2/20 format)And I am gratefull to pass up faster guys who broke in the last two min. of a thirty min. race. So I see the benefits of each. I just like the 2/20 a little better. See Ya, Greg

[Dale Nickos]

Hey Charlie,

I was at putnam...I was one of the Shifters that was out there practicing while Ted was Kickin *** ....
I was the Big in the Blue suit..27J..The heaviest across the scales at 453 after the SKUSA race...i was 2nd in the G2(BIG GUY) group.....

[Terry Tilton]

Tacket-
The reason for my comment was due to the tone of your reply , which was basically if you cant keep up, you suck.
I'm 6'2" and 210 very fit pounds, i doubt I'd fit in a concession kart. But I bet I can throw it further than anyone on this forum. I agree with you that a 30 minute race does showcase more ability than a 20 minute, so why not two 30 minute races.
If you are man enough to beat someone once, then do it twice to prove its no fluke. I'd hate to have my whole race day ruined because I ran over something on the warmup lap and got a flat (which has happened twice this year to me) or have a so-so finish because no matter how we draw for starting positions, I am almost always starting near dead last (20+) and usually finish in the top 6, but way behind the leaders. When I start in the top 10, I usually run with the lead pack.
But the main point I was trying to make is that your response just sounded arrogant, rude, and mean.