CUT THE BS, RULES ARE NOT THAT HARD

[Russ Schaeffer]

Hey guys, a good rules structure is not that hard to figure out if you know what you are doing:

CHEAPEST
1. OEM, Modification allowed, no addition of material, after market piston and rings allowed. No mixing of model year parts.

2ND CHEAPEST
2. OEM, No modification allowed.

MOST EXPENSIVE
3. Open.

When you start a class you need to decide which of the three you want to do. That will give you the guidance you need to make rulings that are in the spirit of the class. I know for some people they will think that an all OEM unmodified class is the cheapest but it is not. This is because if you cannot grind the part to tolerance the manufacturers and large kart shops can select the best components before you can. This gives them an unfair advantage and will cost you more money looking for the best parts or better motor.

That's it, have fun.
Thanx
Russ Schaeffer

[Paul Tartaglia]

Hey Russ,

From your post I doubt you have been directly involved in any rule making committees. It's more difficult than you think if done properly. Cost is only one issue to consider and frankly it should be a minor one. Rules need to meet the following tests 1) Is it safe? 2)Does it fit the needs of the racer? 3) Does it fit within the supply channels? 4) Is it easy to understand?
5) Is it in easily enforceable?

Using your example for the cheapest scenario, I would say that it does not meet the criteria. Especially in the area of easily enforceable. Given the fact that almost all people involved with local, regional and many national events are volunteers, it is highly unlikely that your normal "tech Man" will be able to identify a head from say a 91' CR125 to a 99' model. Multiply this by a variety of parts which are interchangeable between model years of all engines, I would say that this rule which seems simple on paper, does not meet the criteria for a good rule.

When developing rules, you must step out your normal mindset and consider all the angles from racers, manufacturers, distributors, promoters, insurance companies and sanctioning bodies.

The best rules are simple to understand and easy to enforce. They are also the hardest to formulate.

IMHO

[Russ Schaeffer]

Paul,

Thanx for the reply. I've been racing in various motorsports for over 25 years. When we raced Production based and 125 Grand Prix motorcycles, we dealt with unmodified OEM, year model restrictions, and unlimited rules. In the unmodified classes we self policed, I could spot an out of year part instantly, and if I thought a part was modified or there were hidden illegal parts I paid my protest fee and we all had a good look. I never felt that another team had any advantage over me, except for the factory teams that pulled the best parts in Japan before we could get them. That didn't bother us all that much anyway because they had better riders to start with and would have beaten us anyway. I fully intended to give a simplistic suggestion to help open up discussion about the karting community rule enforcement and procedures. There are better ways to make and enforce tech rules and I would like to start talking about them.
Thanx for taking the time to respond.
Russ Schaeffer

[John Clasen]

Russ, if you have something to contribute rules wise, your timing is great. The process is underway for an overhaul of the 250 IC/E and 250 F/E rules. Let's hear what is on your mind.
J.R. Clasen

[deborah d-harpur]

I disagree with Russ on this one.

Often a rule is made that appears to be very clear, simple and understandable.

Later during the year, or heaven forbid at a GN event, it becomes more than clear that some type of loophole or specific clarification of intent was not spelled out in terms that could in no way be misinterpreted.

You can ask people who have served on the BOD, and on the Committees since the very beginning, from Duffy to Haddock, to the people who are now volunteering their time how simple they think making the rules are, and I don't think any of them will use the word "simple" in their reply.

Drivers/competitors are just too creative, and smart and manage to find intent where there is none, or a "it doesn't say I can't so I can" in every rule imaginable.

I would 2nd JR's comment, and hope that you will have time to put your suggestions to the committee members. It would be great if we could have a year that the rule book stands on it's own and doesn't need all the updates.

[Debbie Kuntze]

Goodnees, yes-grab the pen, computer or whatever and get the suggestions in. Ocotber is creeeping up and there isn't much time left. Idealy the committees would like to have ideas as early as possible. Hearing them on the day of the meetings is what casues the knee-jerk ruleings we have to live with for a year or so!

[Erik Frank]

I hope that there are people from the IKF committees reading the discussions on these forums. There are a lot of opinions, and some meaningful discussions. It certainly seems to be a good cross section of the karting community.


The WKA people are here, the SKUSA people are here, where is IKF?

[Bob Chiras]

The only way to create simplicity is to have the racer sign a contract at the start of the year. The motors will be brought to the track, for that matter the complete Kart, by a recognized supplier. The racer adds his own tires. Gear selection is specified based upon track length and supplied by the shop doing the race prep.

Now you have to adjust the chassis, manage the tires and drive the kart.

No worries over cheating it is skill, experience and intelligence that will dominate.

Still not satisfied change karts every evening then it can be said that someone is getting a better pick.

[Deborah Davidson-Harpur]

Erik, two of us are directly above your post.
Deb D-H serves on the BOD, Deb K is on the RR committee.

I didnt know there were WKA BOD members or committee members on here. I would love to meet them! Send me a email please.

Also, I would like to remind Erik among others, that IKF is a member organization, and the members ARE IKF. Therefore, IKF is all around you.



[ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Deborah Davidson-Harpur ]

[Russ Schaeffer]

J.R.,
This web site is not displaying correctly right now but I will try to post a short response. I'm not an expert on the ICE class but I have a fairly good understanding of it because it was a class that I was considering before I injured my neck. Let's try. The class is simplified /reduced cost version of the Formula E class (Unlimited in this country)and therefore consideration to cost is an issue. The current rule structure intent was to keep things simple and affordable and are usable. Enforcement has been the biggest issue. My contention as stated in this thread is that MODIFIED OEM is the least expensive way to go and I believe that was the intention of the class. You also need to keep guys from remanufacturing entirely new part designs by welding or fully machining OEM originals. As an example
making a new gear ratio from an existing gear. But grinding on a reed cage is a no cost/low cost improvement much like a velocity stack and should be allowed. So for the engine rules I would leave it as is with
enough clarification to keep the intent. It would be something like this: List of approved engines, All parts must be OEM-can be modified, blueprinting and fitting OK, after market piston and rings OK, all parts
must be correct for year of manufacture, stock bore and stroke must be maintained, no addition of material allowed except for repairs (no welding, or remanufacturing componts). Gear ratios must be correct for
year of manufacture. Attemps to lighten or substantialy alter stock componts forbiden. This is a clarification of the existing rules only and I'm sure I've have left some things out but this should get the discusstion rolling.
The other area of concern in the ICE class has been bodywork. My feel on this is that ICE is already a fully faired fiberglass class so my only restrictions would be of overall dimensions and an open canopy. If the
wheels or driver get covered over as designs improve it's OK as long as it is safe. The overall dimension limit will keep radical designs from taking over. We will just see detail improvements over time.
How's that, are you guys getting the idea? It's a clear intent for the class, self policing, and reasonable tech inspection.
Thanx for your time.
Russ Schaeffer

[Erik Frank]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Deborah Davidson-Harpur:

I didnt know there were WKA BOD members or committee members on here. I would love to meet them! Send me a email please.
[ August 09, 2001: Message edited by: Deborah Davidson-Harpur ]

---

Please excuse my nievity. I do recognize a few names from the pages of KN (my August issue has yet to show up )

WKA officials have participated in several threads. As an example, check out this thread that was active a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.ekartingnews.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=6&t=000008

In light of that accident, we had a very interesting discussion about Air Fence and track safety. Several WKA people had some good input.

The point I guess I was trying to make is that (to me) these forums can be a good tool for informally sampling general opinions about various issues. Even though I am an active IKF member, chances are, that I won't attend a BOD meeting, but I do weigh in with my opinion from time to time on this discussion board.


Thanks for the heads up.

-erik

[Russ Schaeffer]

Bob Cheras,

No, No, No, No. We will let the Europeans waste their time doing this. Why would you do all this for a 3 dollar plastic trophy? I know everyone in karting is the next Shumaker but your real customer is the recreational racer. Lets try to have some fun!
Thanx
Russ Schaeffer

[John Clasen]

First Bob and then Russ.

Bob, I am with Russ regarding your comment...no, no, no, no. If you want to run Rotax Max you should go run it.

Russ, thanx for the reply to our request for the rules content. For the most part I agree with what you have said. Now we have to sit down and do the hard part which is to put the concept down on paper as cogent verbiage. When writing rules I follow two dictums: safety and economics. That way the goal is fairly straight forward, the difficult part is conveying that spirit & intent well enough so you don't wind up with a hundred and one interpretations later on. One thing I know for sure is that when we are done with this project we will have made mistakes in choice of sentence structure, content, and maybe even spel--ling. The most important thing is that we are allowed to go back in periodically and make changes or updates with out an act of Congress (i.e. having the Proposal System imposed on us). The organizations need to remember that we (the racers, promotors, & shop owners)are the one's best equipped to write the rules for our sport. Give us the authority to do our job, as it is in our best interest to do the best job possible. In the end there will only be one test necessary: is the class growing and prospering, or are people leaving disgruntled (like they are now)?
Remember what happened when the IKF let their GearBox committee run the show in '98 & '99, and then what happened when the BOD took over this division. In '97 there were about 12 shifters at the GN's. In '98 there were 175. In '99 there were 195. In 2000 there were 91. In 2001 there were 50. Since the Board took over this division in 2000, it has been in a free fall. If the Board of Directors of these organizations would just Manage the troops, and not attemot to legislate, things would be a lot better. Let the people who know the individual divisions run those divisions. If they don't do the job, install a new committee that can get the job done.
Management, what a concept.
JMHO,
J.R. Clasen

[Larry Ferguson]

Like I have always said JR, the IKF totally blew it when they "took over" the shifter division that you and your crew worked so hard to build, only to let it faulter into what it is today. Sure there were some hurdles, but you overcame them. IMO, the SKUSA Mission Region (undeniably one of the best Shifter Kart groups operating in the United States) is what we would be seeing today had things remained as they were. Most likely, even better. The BOD should humble themselves and ask for your return!
Also, I know it's off topic, but the Podesni family is also very deserving of applaud for their handling of the 2001 IKF Region 7 season. I have to wonder if they will even want to come back after the hassles they went through this year. Hats off to all of you!

[Ardy Sadeghi]

If the Board of Directors of these organizations would just Manage the troops, and not attemot to legislate, things would be a lot better. Let the people who know the individual divisions run those divisions. If they don't do the job, install a new ommittee that can get the job done. Management, what a concept.

How ironic and true!! at this end, we have wka who had nothing to do with the creation and success of the 125 class. And now they are proposing to breakup the one class that is one of the most populated classes, if not the most in enduro racing!

Seems like IKF and WKA have a lot more in common than they might like to agree!!
Not that I am contemplating their merger.. then we'd really be in trouble!

[ August 10, 2001: Message edited by: Ardy Sadeghi ]