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| By the end of the year, Schumacher will be: |
| done, ready for retirement. |
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10% |
[ 5 ] |
| back at the front of the pack. |
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46% |
[ 23 ] |
| somewhere in the middle. |
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42% |
[ 21 ] |
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| Total Votes : 49 |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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 Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:22 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Robinson wrote: | You dislike a guy who took advantage of everything afforded him by the rules he had to race under?????
As far as Ford giving Shuey a better motor, I bet he had nothing to say about it whatsoever.
Dave |
Basically yes. Michael is the epitome of someone who will win at any cost. And that's fine except that it necessarily discounts what he did on the track. I mean, if some factory gave me a kart motor that made twice as much horsepower as anything anyone else could buy I might still not win. But if I did, a lot of people would say that the motor has something to do with it. Schumacher didn't go head to head with Senna that year because he had a factory advantage. So whatever success he had isn't as cool as what he would have accomplished had the playing field been level.
Same thing with him insisting on having a submissive driver as his #2. Formula 1 is often about the car and one of the reasons we know that Senna was better than Prost, for example is that Senna had the courage to race Prost head to head in the same exact car. Michael never had that sort of courage and, to me that makes him less of a driver.
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Erik Maxfield
Joined: 16 May 2004
Posts: 1068
Location: United States, California, Vacaville
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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I seem to recall that Schumacher joined Ferrari when it was a turd.
He also racked up 7 world championships......unlikely JUST because of the car.
He is running top 10 after 3 years out of the saddle. I am REALLY curious what will happen at SPA.
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Erik Maxfield wrote: |
He also racked up 7 world championships......unlikely JUST because of the car.
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I agree, and for the record, I've never said that Schumacher won because of his car alone. But in the modern era, there are generally only one or two teams that have a real shot at the championship every year. And Micheal significantly improved his odds by insisting on number one status and insisting on patsy teammates. No one else does that.
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Bob Baldwin jr
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 3579
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:27 am Post subject: |
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Unless he can pull off a win it NOT likely we will see him next year.
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Paul Hutt
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 388
Location: United States, Washington, Olympia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Stevens wrote: | | The Chin is ready to become the next Jacques Villeneuve. |
Maybe - maybe not.
Having scored just one victory prior to last season, Jenson Button at last got his hands on a car capable of challenging for the title and promptly steered it to victory scoring six wins.
Do not forget the car in the equation, which generally means (not always) getting on the team that is on top. However, that is hard to achieve.
LOL to Chin.
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Larry Menshouse
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 197
Location: United States, Florida, Tampa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Re Senna Vs Schumacher
As I recall, Senna got the same engine as Schumacher mid-way through 1993. In addition, Senna's Mclaren used their own engine management electronics, which they claimed to be superior to Ford's. Between that and the different chassis and active ride systems, I could not at the time nor now say one car - overall - was clearly superior to the other for much of the season. Toward the end, it does seem that Mclaren moved ahead of the Benneton. For example, Andretti finished on the Podium in Monza .
Unfortunately, I cannot find commentary or facts to back up or contradict my memory via the internet. Anyone? |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 10:37 am Post subject: |
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| Larry Menshouse wrote: | Re Senna Vs Schumacher
As I recall, Senna got the same engine as Schumacher mid-way through 1993. In addition, Senna's Mclaren used their own engine management electronics, which they claimed to be superior to Ford's. Between that and the different chassis and active ride systems, I could not at the time nor now say one car - overall - was clearly superior to the other for much of the season. Toward the end, it does seem that Mclaren moved ahead of the Benneton. For example, Andretti finished on the Podium in Monza .
Unfortunately, I cannot find commentary or facts to back up or contradict my memory via the internet. Anyone? |
I think that's about right. But I wasn't trying to say that Senna had a worse ride--I was simply noting that this was the first sign (to me at least) that Schumacher would exploit any advantage to win the WC.
And so far, he's the only one that really does this sort of thing. Since then all of the best drivers (Hamiliton, Massa, Alonso) have all been willing to be paired up with drivers who they knew might challenge them. That cost Alonso and Hamiliton championships for sure. And it is exactly why we know, for example that Hamilton is better than Alonso. With Michael, you no one will ever know for sure because his politics deprived of us the data.
The funny part is that now, in his first season where he isn't undisputed #1, he's getting his ass handed to him by a driver that virtually no one paid any mind to before this year.
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Paul Hutt
Joined: 26 Sep 2009
Posts: 388
Location: United States, Washington, Olympia
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:21 am Post subject: |
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[quote="joseph hollinger"] | Larry Menshouse wrote: | Re Senna Vs Schumacher
The funny part is that now, in his first season where he isn't undisputed #1, he's getting his ass handed to him by a driver that virtually no one paid any mind to before this year. |
Again it is the car.
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Tim Doll
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2643
Location: United States, Washington,
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:40 am Post subject: |
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Joe
Remember Senna intentially crashing his team mate to clinch the Championship? And after their experience as team mates at McLaren, both Prost and Senna insisted on being No. 1 drivers going forward.
I think you look close enough, you'll see more similarities than differences between Senna and Schumi, especially in the fire to win....
Tim
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Larry Menshouse
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 197
Location: United States, Florida, Tampa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Doll wrote: | | Remember Senna intentially crashing his team mate to clinch the Championship? And after their experience as team mates at McLaren, both Prost and Senna insisted on being No. 1 drivers going forward. |
Add to this that Senna came to Prost's team, looking for a ride with a team producing a car capable of winning the championship. He was in no position to push Prost out of the team.
And I would argue that Senna's on track behavior was worse due to the 1990 crash alone. It was premeditated and far more dangerous than any of Schumacher's moves. But both were prepared to do whatever it took to win.
As far as who was better, I see Senna as the faster driver on pure speed. But I think Schumacher had a better overall ability to put the best team around him and develop the car to his strengths. It's a shame we were not able to see them compete over the course of the nineties. |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Larry Menshouse wrote: |
And I would argue that Senna's on track behavior was worse due to the 1990 crash alone. It was premeditated and far more dangerous than any of Schumacher's moves. But both were prepared to do whatever it took to win. |
That argument would carry more weight had Schumacher not done the exact same thing to Hill. And what's worse, there wasn't even an element of tit-for-tat in that one.
| Larry Menshouse wrote: |
As far as who was better, I see Senna as the faster driver on pure speed. But I think Schumacher had a better overall ability to put the best team around him and develop the car to his strengths. It's a shame we were not able to see them compete over the course of the nineties. |
Looking at their qualifying records alone, it's obvious that Senna was faster. And that was against teammates that where considered top of the heap. After Senna's death, Williams went on to be unstoppable. So much so that the otherwise feckless Hill became world champion. Had Senna not died, he could have easily added another three or four championships to his total. And most of those would have been at the expense of Schumacher.
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Last edited by joseph hollinger on Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Doll wrote: | Joe
Remember Senna intentially crashing his team mate to clinch the Championship? And after their experience as team mates at McLaren, both Prost and Senna insisted on being No. 1 drivers going forward. |
Ok, but it took them years to get to that point of exasperation. That's really not the same as Schumacher at all.
| Tim Doll wrote: | J
I think you look close enough, you'll see more similarities than differences between Senna and Schumi, especially in the fire to win....
Tim |
I guess its pretty subjective, but I can't think of any two drivers who appear to be as different.
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Larry Menshouse
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 197
Location: United States, Florida, Tampa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| joseph hollinger wrote: | | Larry Menshouse wrote: |
And I would argue that Senna's on track behavior was worse due to the 1990 crash alone. It was premeditated and far more dangerous than any of Schumacher's moves. But both were prepared to do whatever it took to win. |
That argument would carry more weight had Schumacher not done the exact same thing to Hill. And what's worse, there wasn't even an element of tit-for-tat in that one. |
That's where I disagree. The two occasions differ significantly.
First, Senna foreshadowed his intentions while complaining that pole was on the wrong side of the grid for that race. He had the whole weekend to think about it, and he was complaining the entire weekend. Michael's move came after he went off and Hill caught him in the next corner. That's still pretty much in the heat of the moment, and he had only a few seconds to think it out and to reconsider.
Second, Senna's move came at a corner while traveling at 150 miles per hour plus whereas Schumacher's was at a much slower corner, perhaps even 100 miles per hour slower. Coupled with the forethought that Senna put in, I cannot see how a move at that speed can be thought to be equal to Michael's move.
| joseph hollinger wrote: | | Larry Menshouse wrote: |
As far as who was better, I see Senna as the faster driver on pure speed. But I think Schumacher had a better overall ability to put the best team around him and develop the car to his strengths. It's a shame we were not able to see them compete over the course of the nineties. |
Looking at their qualifying records alone, it's obvious that Senna was faster. And that was against teammates that where considered top of the heap. After Senna's death, Williams went on to be unstoppable. So much so that the otherwise feckless Hill became world champion. Had Senna not died, he could have easily added another three or four championships to his total. And most of those would have been at the expense of Schumacher. |
I agree that Senna would have added some more championships. 1996 and 1997 are no brainers, provided that Senna stayed with Williams and Schumacher went to Ferrari. Senna spoke a few times about wanting to end his career at Ferrari, but with Williams' superiority, I find it hard to believe he would have moved. Senna at Williams may have influenced Michael's decision as well. Although, I suspect he would have still went, since he basically conceded the championships those 2 years to the likes of Hill and Villenueve, although he may not have thought the second was out of reach... because it wasn't.
1994, is a bit more murky, since Senna had 0 points going into Imola vs 20 for Schumacher. Granted, Hill had only 6 and managed a championship run, but that was after Schumacher's ban, etc. Of course, the ban may have been more or less severe if Schumacher had been in a close fight with Senna. But here, Senna has got to be the favorite.
1995 is much harder to predict in my mind. The Williams didn't seem to be as dominant. Perhaps that was due to their drivers. The Benetton had the Renault engine and atleast in the hands of Schumacher, looked untouchable at many venues.
Regardless, at best Senna wins both 1994 and 1995, followed by 1996 and 1997 if he stayed that long. That's 6 titles to what would be Schumacher's 5. But then, I don't see Schumacher retiring in 2006. There's no doubt he would have picked up another in 2007. After that, with his car development, who knows? |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Larry Menshouse wrote: | | joseph hollinger wrote: | | Larry Menshouse wrote: |
And I would argue that Senna's on track behavior was worse due to the 1990 crash alone. It was premeditated and far more dangerous than any of Schumacher's moves. But both were prepared to do whatever it took to win. |
That argument would carry more weight had Schumacher not done the exact same thing to Hill. And what's worse, there wasn't even an element of tit-for-tat in that one. |
That's where I disagree. The two occasions differ significantly.
First, Senna foreshadowed his intentions while complaining that pole was on the wrong side of the grid for that race. He had the whole weekend to think about it, and he was complaining the entire weekend. Michael's move came after he went off and Hill caught him in the next corner. That's still pretty much in the heat of the moment, and he had only a few seconds to think it out and to reconsider.
Second, Senna's move came at a corner while traveling at 150 miles per hour plus whereas Schumacher's was at a much slower corner, perhaps even 100 miles per hour slower. Coupled with the forethought that Senna put in, I cannot see how a move at that speed can be thought to be equal to Michael's move.
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Nicely argued. I'd just like to make two points: first, your thesis that Senna premeditated his move is conjecture at best. It's an interesting theory for sure, but complaining about one side of the grid is far cry from saying you're going to take someone out. And secondly, you ignore the fact that Prost did the same thing a year earlier, at the same track. And basically admitted that he closed the door intentionally. So the bad blood was already there and that's not at all analogous to the Schumacher/Hill crash.
It's interesting to watch Schumacher's post race interview where he basically gloats about Hill not being able to continue. And that's a good example of what I'm talking about. The vast majority of us want to win but it takes something away from that win when you take someone else out of the race before the finish. I've done that, and it feels like crap.
| Larry Menshouse wrote: |
Regardless, at best Senna wins both 1994 and 1995, followed by 1996 and 1997 if he stayed that long. That's 6 titles to what would be Schumacher's 5. But then, I don't see Schumacher retiring in 2006. There's no doubt he would have picked up another in 2007. After that, with his car development, who knows? |
Seven to five (he already had three in 1994). And regardless, even if Schumacher made up ground after Senna retired, what does that mean? Obviously, being the best means beating the best. Had Senna won in 1994 (which I believe he would have) and 95 (which he obviously would have) as well as 96 and 97 (which would have been cakewalks) then what exactly could Schumacher claim?
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Chad Stapleton
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 4403
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Mercedes are building a "stretch" W01 2010 for MS to better suit his driving style !! 
http://en.espnf1.com/mercedes/motorsport/story/15391.html
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