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Chad Stapleton
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
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 Posted: Sun Apr 18, 2010 11:43 pm Post subject: F1 considering a change to Turbo motors |
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..possibly coupled with KERS systems in an attempt to show some "green" credentials. ??
1.5 L , 4 cylinder + Hybrid drive ?? ...
......i have mixed feelings on that !!
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=40494
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John Denman
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 4846
Location: United States, Texas, McKinney
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:02 am Post subject: |
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KERS was an interesting fad, not quite ready for prime time.
1.5 liter turbos, now thats an interesting direction. I can recall the last time 1.5 turbos were used; Renault and BMW with something on the order of 1100 HP in qualifying trim running straight toluene. Unfortunately the big power was over a very narrow band with a huge snap that none of the drivers ran the engines into the peak zone very often. Piquet tried a few times and crashed more then once in practice as his reward.
Indycars are also pointing to a 2 liter turbo formula. One of the most favored is a stock block & head with a fuel flow limiter. That makes the most sense as it offers the manufacturers a way to showcase efficiencies from technology.
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Tim Megenbier
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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VW currently has a 2.0 turbo in 250, 350, 450, 550, 650 and 750hp versions. The 750 HP version would require a rebuild after a 500 mile race but the 650HP version should last an entire season.
Plus with the computers and engine management software of today the drivability should be fine. |
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Dave Stevens
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 2021
Location: United States, Nevada, Vegas Baby
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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They're looking to keep the technology more relevant to road cars. The 4 cylinder turbo is a nod to VW as they are being courted to enter the championship. There will likely be some sort of hybrid system in addition to some sort of "greener" fuel.
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Matt McCauley
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| I want V10 NA back... forget green. |
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Dave Stevens
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
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Location: United States, Nevada, Vegas Baby
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:45 am Post subject: |
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They'll be able to get the same HP out of the newer engines as with the current detuned engines. The cost model isn't sustainable and for there to be some manufacturer interest it has to be relevant to current retail technology. Otherwise there is no incentive. For practical purposes we're going as fast as we are going to safely go in a race car like that without risking certain death in the event of a bad crash. At the speeds attainable in the olden days a crash a top speed meant instant subdural hematoma. No matter how well strapped in and protected when you decelerate at that rate your brain will internally rip from your noggin. I think getting back to aero and setup basics in a formula that's not as constrictive to passing will go a long way to fixing some of what is illing F1.
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Chad Stapleton
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Tim Megenbier wrote: | VW currently has a 2.0 turbo in 250, 350, 450, 550, 650 and 750hp versions. The 750 HP version would require a rebuild after a 500 mile race but the 650HP version should last an entire season.
Plus with the computers and engine management software of today the drivability should be fine. |
Back in 1988 the production based 1.5 L, 4 cylinder BMW F1 turbo motor used by Brabham was producing 900 bhp in race trim.
seems like they could dust that off and still be competitive ! 
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Tim Megenbier
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 573
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 5:25 am Post subject: |
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22 years later with the advanced computers, fuel, metals, etc I agree but there is soo much more that the auto mfg's have that we don't know about.
The high HP numbers are easy to make. emmissions and fuel milage are another thing but that's what the computers are for.
Remember the 1975 Pinto? 70hp from a 4cyl. We have come a long way. |
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Chad Stapleton
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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2013 is the year for the next engine spec to race, and there seems to be a definite drive for "Eco" credibility ( less fuel, Bio fuel ?) and alignment with "mainstream" motor manufacturing .
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83090
could anyone see this developing into a small turbo Diesel with Hybrid /KERS incorporated ???
( remember what Audi and Peugeot have done in LM series !)
The need to use partial hybrid electric drive could really drive battery development forward. 
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Chuck Skowron
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1152
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Chad Stapleton wrote: | | Tim Megenbier wrote: | VW currently has a 2.0 turbo in 250, 350, 450, 550, 650 and 750hp versions. The 750 HP version would require a rebuild after a 500 mile race but the 650HP version should last an entire season.
Plus with the computers and engine management software of today the drivability should be fine. |
Back in 1988 the production based 1.5 L, 4 cylinder BMW F1 turbo motor used by Brabham was producing 900 bhp in race trim.
seems like they could dust that off and still be competitive ! |
While the BMW inline-4 definitely produced enormous horsepower, especially in qualifying trim, I think the 1988 turbo engine you're thinking of, that produced 900 hp in race trim in that final turbo year, was actually the Honda RA168E V-6 powerplant McLaren and Lotus had in '88.
As John alluded to above, a big help for them, besides their EFIs and engine mgt systems, was the rocket fuel they ran back then; I don't think they would allow that now if the turbos do in fact return. But on the other hand, yeah, 20+ year advancement in Fuel Injection and Electronics would probably more than make up the difference.
(As an aside, the BMW F1 engine was definitely a production-based motor, although the Honda was a pure race-bred engine, just like the TAG-Porsche was from the same timeframe.)
McLaren, as we know, dominated that season; winning all but one race. Easy to understand since they had the best of nearly everything, engine being one of them. But what was amazing about that Honda engine were the strict restrictions they put upon the turbo motors for '88, in comparison to the 3.5 N/A motors run that same year.
They only had 2.5 bar boost to work with, down from 4.0 bar the previous year, and unlimited boost before that. That was still probably enough for race-trim, but then they had only 150 liters of fuel allotted for the duration of the race (no refueling). In fact, the Ferraris frequently had trouble that year making it to the end of the race with that little fuel on board for their thristy turbos.
There's a great SAE article out there that describes that Honda Engine in detail, and what they did to generate so much power out of such a small package. I vaguely remember it might have been linked here at one time awhile back...
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Chuck Skowron
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Chad Stapleton
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Chuck,
I was deliberately referring to the BMW as a production based 4 cyl motor, but the power figure may have been from the '87 spec 4 bar days.
No doubt the Honda was the dominant motor in 88, but unless i am reading it wrong, that paper states that the Honda made 685bhp on the '88 spec 2.5 bar boost ?
and 1010bhp in '87 using 4 bar.
but as has been stated, modern technology gives this level of output in street-able cars. It is not uncommon for fully "tuned" Mitsubishi Evo's to give over 800bhp from their 2 litre motors with only 3 bar boost.
"lest we forget.."
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Erik Maxfield
Joined: 16 May 2004
Posts: 1068
Location: United States, California, Vacaville
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| Posted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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The fuel shown in the article for the honda motor is not all that exotic.
Toluene, heptane, and iso-octane.
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Chad Stapleton
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
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| Posted: Mon Apr 26, 2010 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | ...Formula One teams are close to agreeing upon a new engine formula for the six-year period beginning in 2013.
Until then, development of the current 2.4 litre V8s will remain 'frozen', to be replaced thereafter by similarly powerful engines that use less fuel, emit less pollution and are affordable for the small teams.
Spain's El Mundo Deportivo newspaper said an in-principle agreement has been reached for a four cylinder, 1.5 litre engine equipped with a twin-turbo and direct injection. The new formula would reportedly also involve KERS. |
Ref http://en.espnf1.com
Prediction ...They will sound DULL 
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