Starting karting: shifter vs. non-shifter

[Paul Carey]

I posted this under the Shifter kart discussion topic as well. I am repeating it here for maximum response. I hope that's ok:

My buddy and I took Terry Ives' class and fell in love with the sport. We each used to ride motorcycles (canyon racers) and understand the dynamics of going fast. I've been told to start in a non-shifter kart and not a shifter so I can develop my driving skills before going faster. My friend questions whether we're not wasting money starting out there and asks whether we should get a shifter to start (which is what we expect to drive eventually). We plan on more weekend, non-racing driving for the first few months before we try to enter any races, and then it will probably be club level racing only. (We also have kids and can't commit tons of time to the sport.) We don't want to be disappointed with our purchase; ie, if we go non-shifter, we don't want to feel the need to replace it quickly with a shifter, and if we go shifter to start, we don't want to be in over our heads and not be competitive when we do start racing. QUESTION: What do people who race shifters think about what to get when starting out in these circumstances?

Thanks for the help.

Paul Carey

[Tom Stephens]

Paul, I went all the way to S. Cal just to try an HPV 4 to see if I liked it (I do!)...well, OK, I had to go down there anyway
Why don't you rent a shifter?? Because, I'll tell you right now what the answer will be to your question (and I hope this won't stop anyone from posting, as I still enjoy hearing the different responses)...some will say stick with the non-shifters and some will say go to a shifter. The ONLY way you will really know is to drive one yourself, IMO!

Tom Stephens
www.kartfinder.com

[John Valerio]

Paul,
try them both! Some will tell you that you should learn to drive before you start on a shifter. My personal decission to stay in the clutch class is to learn more about driving and chassis set up.I too will move to the shifters but not for a year or two.
I've driven shifters on practice days. The one you looked at in Dublin(yz80 with Invader) they are fast but a busy ride. And the fact that my buddies that jumped into shifters right off the bat are not much faster than me according to the Micron:-).
its an investment either way........by the way get your kids into the racing scene. I race with my son, Its a family thing for us.

John Valerio

[Kevin Callahan]

Nor that my opinion is worth more than anyone else, but here's my 3 cents!!! ;-)

Start in Sportsman or Superbox--Canyon chasing is a lot different than racing wheel to wheel with 10 other guys who all want the same piece of real estate you do on turn one of lap one. Buy a late model used kart, race the heck out of it for a year and get lots of wheel to wheel experience. Then sell it and move up to a shifter.

That's what I just did. I sold my sportsman/superbox set-up for not that much less than I paid for it and bought a 1-year-old shifter. The money I got back for the old kart really took the bite out of buying the shifter. Then, in a year or so, I can do the same thing with my current shifter and either buy new or another late model used.

Although it's hard to imagine selling my current kart after just driving it for the first time last weekend--it rocks!

Either way you go, I also think renting is a good idea. It lets you get your feet wet without the major investment.

Kevin

[Chad Stapleton]

all of the above, plus .... make sure you test a Rotax Max kart also before you hand over your $$$'s
Make the most of test rides - learning to handle a kart starting off with a shifter , realy is "jumping in the deep end" !!
Have fun.

[Alberto E. Casasus]

I would recomend you trying them both. I race HPV4 but I'm looking foward to jump into a shifter class. You would probably fall in love with the speed you'll reach in the shifter, but the way I would go if I was you (like most the guys say) would be a clutch. There you'll develop more quickly some of the skills that will come in handy when driving a shifter. Though you're going to go a little bit slower, you would learn some driving techniques and how to understand your set-ups. If you go this way, you can buy a shifter ready kart (will allow you to put the shifter leverer, engine, etc..) and that way you dont have to spend a whole lot of $ if jumping to a shifter class. You can always be able to sell your clutch engine & pipes. Keep this in mind...It might help you a bit in the future...Hope I have been helpfull........

[Saro Marcarian]

Most of the responses you're getting seem to say 'Do This', 'Do That', or 'Do What You Want' without describing some of the differences in life.

I'd first like to get this out of the way: Driving a shifter isn't really about shifting any more than chewing gum is about muscle control. You just do it.

Powerful karts will stress car control and right foot management. In a long race on a hot day, you may even learn about tire management.

Karts with front brakes SERIOUSLY alter some things you can do while diving into a corner.

Powerful, Grippy karts with Front Brakes with gearboxes are a tremendous workload on a short track and teach you task prioritization (by fire, mind you!) and remind you that you may need to get in better shape.

Low HP karts stress smooth driving and conservation of momentum.

For example, comparing a Briggs and a 125 shifter on a typical sprint 2nd gear corner (obviously for the shifter), you'll see that what was a late apex turn in a 125 is neutral apex in a Briggs. No power to worry about putting down. Late apexing that particular turn in the Briggs would just toss some momentum.

Low HP karts are also interesting because you can (literally) observe and alter your actions mid corner. Something beefier which requires more commitment and a more choreographed line can make figuring out what went wrong dauting.

I totally understand the 'wasted money on stepping stone equipment' argument. I've been there since I didn't have much interest in being a clutch technician for the rest of my life.

Having driven 125s on sprint and long courses as well as my recent racing in 4 stroke 6 hour enduros, I really appreciate what each has taught me.

One suggestion not mentioned if you're POSITIVE you want to run 125s in the near future: Buy a 125 shifter and road race it (not a personal believer in the 80 other than the fact that it eliminates the 100cc clutch rebuilder syndrome). Speed doesn't really matter all that much (as long as you're not smacking something!) and a 125 is a relative snooze on a long course. Upper 90 mph solo, low 100s in a draft (ignore the 130 mph rhetoric until you radar one of those guys at that speed - and I doubt you will). LOTS of emphasis on setup (depending on the track) and less 'apparent' power due to long gears, wider tracks, etc. Once you get the hang, it would be interesting to go and race short courses. Same equipment, totally different experience.

Choose wisely. Someone already mentioned your canyon riding is fairly irrelevant. It's absolutely true in more ways than should be elaborated upon here. Your idea of spending (lots of) time PRACTICING before subjecting others to your racing is a fine idea - one which needs to be more heavily adopted in karting.

-Saro

[ July 31, 2001: Message edited by: Saro Marcarian ]

[Rob Jones]

Your off to a great start, you can't find many mentors more qualified than Terry Ives.

What did Terry have to say on the subject? My guess would be one of the Horstman setups, we have high hopes for this class. The Rotax Max class is interesting, but at a recent race at a track in the Northwest, I veiwed several major equiptment failures, and main event ended up being a single kart race. It can happen to anyone, but too many failures for my first experience in a class pushing maximum reliability.

Having started in 1959 with direct drive, I still think a moderately powered kart with direct drive, or a clutch kart with a low rpm engagement clutch,is the best way to start out. Not the fastest, or the cheapest, just the best way to learn to drive. You must learn all the basics with this type of kart.

I do think that the 80 shifter gives the best bang for the buck, and can be very easy to maintain for recreational use. I don't think you learn as much about entry and exit speeds, power curves, scrubing speed, and other critical driving skills as quickly in the shifter kart, but it is sure fun. You can make up for a lot of driving mistakes with these little gearchangers.

Where do you want to be at the end of your first year of karting? Organised racing, or family fun? Be prepared to make a few mistakes in purchases, but be prepared for fun. Your tastes and requirements will change rapidly, so don't think your first purchase will be your last.

Good luck,

Rob

[Patrick Hubbell]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul Carey:
I posted this under the Shifter kart discussion topic as well. I am repeating it here for maximum response. I hope that's ok:

My buddy and I took Terry Ives' class and fell in love with the sport. We each used to ride motorcycles (canyon racers) and understand the dynamics of going fast. I've been told to start in a non-shifter kart and not a shifter so I can develop my driving skills before going faster. My friend questions whether we're not wasting money starting out there and asks whether we should get a shifter to start (which is what we expect to drive eventually). We plan on more weekend, non-racing driving for the first few months before we try to enter any races, and then it will probably be club level racing only. (We also have kids and can't commit tons of time to the sport.) We don't want to be disappointed with our purchase; ie, if we go non-shifter, we don't want to feel the need to replace it quickly with a shifter, and if we go shifter to start, we don't want to be in over our heads and not be competitive when we do start racing. QUESTION: What do people who race shifters think about what to get when starting out in these circumstances?

Thanks for the help.

Paul Carey

---

Paul, when I started karting there were no shifters or sportsman cans, only piped motors. I currently race both shifter and KT100 w/pipe. Considering you have motorcycle riding experience I would recommend having one more driving school session in a shifter. Then join one of the club's to get access to the track on non race days for practice. When you are within 1 to 1.5 seconds of the posted fast time for your class then it's time to start racing. Although at 1.5 seconds you will be near the rear of the grid.

A shifter kart is a busy proposition and to be fast requires a great deal of skill and concentration. Being smooth behind the wheel is critical in a kart. This is why many people suggest starting out in a clutch kart. If you truly want the shifter then that is what you should buy. Don't expect to be competetive the first year of racing. Some people are and most are not.

Good luck.

[Paul Carey]

Yesterday my friend and I went to the Dixon track with our local kart dealer and we test drove a blue printed clutch kart and an 80cc shifter. The shop owner didn’t push either one, but answered all our questions about each. Wow, what a difference. Now I see why so many people say drive a clutch kart for a while to start. Not only do you have more time in a clutch kart to focus on, and learn more about, carrying speed through a corner on the right line, but you don’t have to work so damn hard! Although the shifter was fun once I got the hang of actually shifting (hell, I sounded [only in my mind I’m sure] like Michael F’ing Schumacher ripping through the gears through the last sweeper and blasting down the straight!), the sheer physicality of holding a line while accelerating and shifting and looking for the right gear to keep it in the narrow power band was…well, a lot of work for a novice. Although I think in time I would get the hang of it, my feeling is that for a guy who is looking for fun and can only go out once a month, I’d have more fun in a clutch kart and stand a better chance of getting to have fun in an occasional club race after about 6 months of driving. NO WAY I could hope to get into a club race without looking like an idiot after 6 months in a shifter. I’m sure I’d do the same if I planned on being serious about racing. Learn the line and how to carry speed in a clutch kart first! MY THANKS TO EVERYBODY WHO WEIGHED IN ON THIS ISSUE WHEN I FIRST POSTED MY QUESTION. YOUR COLLECTIVE INPUT WAS A BIG HELP.
Paul Carey

[Chad Stapleton]

But did you try a Max ???

[Paul Carey]

Chad: No I didn't try a Rotax Max kart. First, I don't think the shop guy I was with had one. Second, Northern Cal. doesn't have that large a contingent running those karts yet from what I've seen.

Paul

[Chad Stapleton]

My point Paul is that the Max is a bit unique in karting. A clutch kart with much more to offer. A much better adrenalin pump than any Yamaha clutch !
By the time you have "practiced" for a few months with it, there will be many more around, believe me ! You realy should at least try one before you spend those $$'s

[Mike Moya]

Hi Paul, Chad is right, try the Rotax. There were ten of us Rotaxes last Sun. at Dixon, were you there? The first No. Cal. RMC race is in Reno next Sun., come by the NetKarts pit and get a ride on my Rotax kart, better yet, arrive and drive with MMI motorsports for the whole weekend, practice Sat race Sun for approx $400, and rooms downtown are pretty reasonable. I say this because the Max class was bigger than all the Yamaha classes last week at Dixon already, and after owning a Rotax for 9 months, it is one tenth the maintenance of a Yamaha pipe motor, if you need to run up front.Bye.

[Chris Sigua]

Mike

A couple of questions:

1. What class rules do you guys run (i.e., weight, tires(YDS?))?

2. Does MMI offer any trial rides for a nominal fee? I'd like to try it for like 5 laps or something; not a whole weekend.

Thanks,
Chris