Results from Topeka National Championships

[Dale Seeley]

Brian,
I'll be bugging you by email later, it's too late to edit out your email address from me...

In my opinion, as a third year Dad of a driver in sprint karting, I do have to agree with the Little League Dad mentality fear to a certain extent. Most Dads believe their kid is the next Dale Jr. or Ms. Legg, although they don't realize that job has already been filled by my son.

At the risk of showing just how uninformed I am on the matter (and therefore perfect for the job), my thoughts follow...

1) If there wasn't an intention (keyword) to develop new drivers into the sport of autox, there would not be a set of classes (A and B) for them described in the rulebook.

2) Developing new drivers does not imply that there was an intention to make them National Champions.

3) Part of developing new drivers who will eventually be eligible to become National Champions should include exposing them to the event where National Championships are decided, as developing drivers.

4) All racers are Little League Dads, and some of them have kids.

5) The SCCA rulebook is much too vague at the moment on what is, and is not legal equipment to allow a National Champion to be decided. It references types of karts, and other organizations that themselves aren't entirely unified coast to coast.

6) But, the most important thing to me, precedent. F125 is part of the National Championship event. F125 was presented with a long list of hurdles to overcome, and someone, a person, developed the support to dismantle the hurdles.

Jr. Drivers present a whole list of new issues at an autox event. As an event organizer myself, I wholly understand the justified desire to not introduce new issues into an event that currently works well.

Looking into my crystal ball, I see an event that is more family oriented, provides extreme stress on the families that are adding a Jr. Driver program to thair A-Mod, CP, or D-Stock program, and I see the SCCA much younger Autocross and Club Racing National Champions in the current classes than ever before.

It is easy to see why Jr. Drivers are a threat to the National organization. Currently, there are an established group of serious competitors who have spent a lot of money, and a lot of years, developing the sport of Autox in the US. When a Jr. Driver who received real development efforts graduates from his toy go-kart to a real car, it will take only one or two years for that kid who has not paid his dues to the established membership to unseat that membership as the National Champion. When that happens, will the established membership embrace these Playstation drivers, or will they walk away from the sport? I don't think the SCCA as a business hates karts, but I do think they might fear them. The SCCA has rebuilt itself into a true National governing body, and if we are honest about it, has Karting been able to do the same? Karting might just be a cancer to the SCCA body.

But, these concerns can be overcome. F125 has proven that. In the end, money talks, and with enough support from the SCCA Membership itself, Jr drivers will be on the asphalt in Topeka. Maybe it will be on a Sunday, before Mom and Dad are up to their eyeballs in making suspension and tire pressure adjustments between work assignments and rungroups. Maybe it will be Monday morning, when everyone else is at breakfast and we are manning the timing equipment ourselves, doing that final check before the day really starts. Or, maybe it will be during lunch, one run, put up or shut up...

All that matters is that the kids get an opportunity to experience the big show, before they are in a 2300 pound car. Well that, and it's another great reason to visit Topeka each year.

Regards,
Dale

[Dave Robinson]

Guys,

Here is the main issues I have with running Solo II in a kart.

First you have to have a region that actaully likes karts. It has been a royal pain in my ass to have my son run locally, we were actaully traveling 90 miles to autocross for a while.

Track time autocrossing compared to sprinting. Try traveling 180 miles to run for less then 5 minutes of track time. The cost of traveling outweighed the entry fee, but made the cost per lap insane.

Finally with respect to National Championships, you have too many people against having Jrs there, even F125 drivers since some feel when you get to nationals it is very cutthroat and to put the kids thru that is wrong. I got into a very heated discussion on the F125 group a while back about allowing kids to run nationals.

With all the mistakes made with respect to the jr classes, How about those Comer Cadets allowed in the 12 to 15 year old class. I finally gave up on autocrossing period end of story. It just was not worth the hassle and expense. It is easier to just run laps at the local sprint track then screw around with autocrossing anymore.

Dave

[Dale Seeley]

Your experiences are all valid reasons to not participate in autocrossing. Fortunately, it's not like that everywhere. Where I am, Atlanta, it's just the opposite in many ways. The closest sprint track, with only one competitor for my son (hes running Yamaha Supercan, my son is in Comer Cadet) is 90 miles away. We travel at least 5 hours every weekend to the more populated tracks, and then drive back that night. Sometimes it doesn't seem worth the $150 in fuel, plus the $40 in registration/grid passes, occasional motel when I can't make it all the way home, for sprint racing. But then my son say's "Thank you, I had a lot of fun" and I realize that I'd much rather be doing that than replacing the hot water heater.

But, the Solo2 events are less than 20 minutes from the house. The run group for the kids is always at lunchtime, right before the Pro's, and they are on Sunday. So, we can leave at 2am on Saturday morning for Ocala, Florida, race there all day, drive home, arrive around 2am on Sunday. Sleep late, and still make the first run at the autox.

Competition at the autox is as cutthroat as the competitors make it. I am an autocrosser, so I've seen what it can be like. But I also know what it is usually like. When a car breaks, nearly everyone in the paddock is there to help, and more than one car has been canabalized for a competitor every National Championship event. I see Karting as a lot more cutthroat, definately a lot more likely to be cheaters and whiners at the National level...

The parents provide the stress for the kids at the autox and at the racetrack. Left to their own devices, the kids would be playing tag or football together right up to the moment the karts are started, and they would be right back at it right after the engines are shut off. The parents are the problem when it comes to stress at the events.

In the end, it comes down to the desire of the membership and the business model of the organizing body. Some regions, like yours, might not participate. That's okay. It happens in Karting as well, there are West Coast and East Coast differences in classing, and even very similar tracks within 100 miles of each other will have different classes represented and catered to.

The SCCA is a very large ship, it takes a long time for it to change direction or speed, but it does happen. It started a long time ago with Speed Freaks, the F125 class introduction, Forumla SAE introduction, and the Jr Driver pilot programs. It is just a matter of time, and timing at this point.

Classes are being dropped from the National Championships, longtime established classes. Others are being watched. Someone, or something needs to replace those classes. It's not Jr. Drivers yet, but maybe in the future.

The way I look at it, Alan has his finger on the pulse of the SEB, KAC, and National HQ at SCCA. If it were a lost cause, he would have said so. If it were easy, everyone would be doing it...

Dale

[Larry MacLeod]

[Dale Seeley]

I agree, that 'slightly' is the appropriate modifier for misguided. Entirely for young driver development would be definately misguided, I recall when we started the Jr Driver program in 1997 (Finger Lakes Region), it provided an opportunity for the kids who were in the paddock anyway an opportunity to participate.

But, it is nearly 10 years later, the group has received enough attention to warrant breaking it into multiple classes, reducing classes, and allowing engines other than just the Briggs. I think it would be safe to say that today, driver development is a big part of the equation.

I'll have to wait to see how the regions respond before making the decision to believe everything is as bleak as the internet makes it out to be.

Regards,
Dale

[Larry Andrews]

I don't think that bleak is exactly the right viewpoint. Politically dangerous territory is a lot closer to the truth, IMO.

I've long been a proponent of including Jr's at nationals, because watching the kids (I don't have any, in full disclosure) was surprisingly joyful for me. It seems reasonable to me that they should have the opportunity to go to the big dance too, just like the grownups. The autocross family is very close-knit and it's sad to me that some feel like children should be excluded from enjoying that experience.

However, many parents of juniors in my region seemed to get pretty psychotic about ensuring that their budding stars get extensively (and often preferentially) recognized for their accomplishments. A war developed between parents and non-parents that led to an extent of political nightmares surrounding the juniors that dramatically took away from the joy of their participation. I wound up walking away from the region because I couldn't take the BS surrounding this situation anymore.

As much as I didn't want to believe it, the little-league parent problem was a front-and-center issue - although, in fairness, the current Jr driver parents often weren't the ones making the most noise. That was done by 'uninterested parties' who were inevitably soon-to-be parents of Jr drivers.

The worst issue was an attempt by adults to capitalize on the achievements of the kids. Taken in isolation, I still believe that the kids' results are fine. However, problems are guaranteed when attempts are made to compare performance between kids and adults - as many are want to do. The validity of PAX numbers for juniors is debatable, but are the basis for these comparisons. Endless arguments ensued, friendships were destroyed and enemies were created. Nothing was as sad as seeing kids upset by this whole mess.

Lessons learned? Let the kids participate, but keep a clear boundary between the adults and the kids, so that comparisons CANNOT be drawn. Take that away and all that's left is kids having fun, with the occasional overzealous parent that is inevitable anyway.

To that, I'd suggest running the kids through both courses on Sunday, with a few hour break between runs on each course. No direct comparisons between kids and adults. A chance to work out course setup and event management issues before the real thing gets going.

Also, PAX values for kids should be indexed only to kids. IE: the fastest class gets a PAX of 1, with others calculated relative to that. This explicitly prevents using PAX for those kinds of comparisons.

Dunno. Makes sense to me... -la

[Dale Seeley]

Something as simple as forcing an (for the senior drivers) optional slalom to be entered from the 'wrong' side by the kids might be enough to make an apples to apples comparison of Jr to Sr drivers difficult to make. It would require nothing more than a pointer cone.

Little League parents are going to be a reality in any sport where kids are supported by their parents. It's not right, but I'm guilty of it too, although I like to think I realized what I was doing before it got out of hand.

I'm much more convinced now that initial decisions to not include the kids were based on sound arguements, not prejudice. I suppose it would be my job to figure out the solutions to as many of the problems as possible.

One glaring problem is the need for parents to have their kids recognized, but there is a solution. A seperate (sp?) awards ceremony could be run at the track after the final runs, before the adult ceremony is held later that evening. It could be done in the pavilion next to the concession stand for those who choose to attend. It would be hard for parents in the last run group to attend, with the closing up of their paddock space needing to be done, but I would like to think that accomodations could be made.

I admit to being naive about matters of the world, being immersed in racing most of the time, but I don't understand how comparing a kid to an adult could cause friendships to be broken. Are the egos of the adults that fragile?

I really don't believe in PAX numbers for the kids, but with a PAX out there, it is impossible to prevent people from applying it to the results. It wouldn't hurt my feelings to see the Jr PAX numbers eliminated. Even between the two classes, it can be argued that the PAX is invalid. Junior B drivers can not choose to drive Junior A class because of age, same for A to B. Yes, there is a time when the classes do overlap due to birthdays, but for the most part, a driver can not choose their class. The PAX, in my opinion, is for the adults who can choose to run any class they want, except for Jr A and Jr B. All that said, will I look at the PAX ranking for my son after the next event? Ya sure, you betcha. And I won't feel bad about it. It wouldn't be published if I wasn't supposed to notice it.

Because others are doing it, full disclosure.

I am interested in bringing the kids to the National Championships for a couple reasons, probably all selfish.
#1 for me, right now, Because it is currently not an option and I need the challenge. It's not really right that is #1, I know, but today that is how I would rank it. It wasn't #1 a few days ago, and it will fall away once I see some success in the project.

#2 My son. I love to watch him drive. He's better than I am, enough so that I drive a lot less to make sure he can drive a lot more. Racing the same kids all the time, locally, Florida, South Carolina, causes stagnation in our program. We don't improve unless we are getting our butts kicked. Only parents serious about autox will bring their kids to Topeka, because it is a hardship for even the most successful team. Those are the people I want to surround myself with, the people who make the sacrifice for racing. That is my definition of success.

#3 The rest of the kids. Not all parents are obsessive compulsive, but I have a feeling that is what it will take to organize an opportunity for the kids in 2007. Between heats, my son and I are playing soccer or throwing a ball around with whatever kids in the paddock that want to play while their mom and dad go crazy over their kart. We lose races because I don't make all of the needed adjustments, but at the end of the day we had fun at the racetrack. I take my prepwork before heading out to the track seriously, but once we roll out in the mighty Aerostar with the kart in the back, and no spare parts, we are on an adventure. Hopefully the rest of the families will decide to have fun too...

I wa very lucky to be a part of the Finger Lakes Region when I started autocrossing. We had National Champions, novices, serious competitors who would not be champions, goofballs, and eventually, the Jr. program. Nicolas Schoonmaker, Jared Greathead, the Shaver kids... , they were the first Jr. drivers in the country I think. The region embraced them as children who raced. Their parents were responsible for them at the event, and we made sure we did not endanger them. It was a very healthy environment for everyone involved. It was all about attitude. Some of those kids are still autoxing, in cars now though...

The question remains though; If it is built, will they come?

Regards,
Dale

[Dale Seeley]

Heh... I hate doing this... admitting I was wrong....

It's not like the old days of kids driving karts at an autox... It really is about the patience of a region.

My previous statements were built on memories of 10 Coyote Chassis Briggs karts, as reliable as the sun.

Yesterday I attended the Atlanta Region season closing event (except for todays "Champion of Champions" event.

2-strokes are fast and fun, but I thought we'd never get through the Jr rungroup. Driver, Engine, and Kart reliability, or lack of it, caused multiple re-runs and delays at the start that frustrated anyone paying attention.

My son caused a re-run situation by throwing a chain and was rewarded with a re-run by catching a slower driver the next time. We had engines that would not idle, clutches that would not clutch, and very creative course interpretation (that one was definately my son).

We had a great time, my son and I, and the Atlanta Region was very patient, to the point of even taking a break from the announcing the very steep learning curve the kids were experiencing. We really look forward to returning for the 2007 season events (and staying on course) with the Atlanta Region.

But, from an event organizers point of view, there is no way I could try to convince anyone that running the kids on the same dates and days as the real big show is a good idea, with a straight face.

If one of the other lots were coned off with a course, and the event was run very loosely, meaning whenever the parents got around to bringing their kids for a couple runs, then it might be feasible, but otherwise....

There is a lot, possibly too small, down near pit road that could be used, or even one of the upper lots near the concession stand....

If that were something worth doing, I would forsee no limits to the number of runs for the kids, everybody gets a trophy, no special awards or dinner banquet, and the need to bring in some Karting vendors/advertising to defray the costs.

In other words, different course on the same property. No strict rungroup organization, indifference to number of runs, focused on fun competition for the kids. Yes... a sideshow, as much as I dislike that analogy.

SCCA Nationals rules would be enforced otherwise, including kart weights and allowable engine configurations. More input would be required for engine tech considerations, I'm not really sure there is any rules set for the Jr Karts.

Obviously, this would be at the allowance of the SCCA to run this sort of thing, but would be for the benefit of the Karting Organizations and advertisers who supported it.

On that note, I met two families yesterday at the autox who said they couldn't wait for their kids to turn 8 so they could pick up a Yamaha or Cadet for them. When they learned that Jesse was driving at 6, on the roadcourse, they made plans to be at the next sprint race to buy a used Kid Kart. I've found that usually, once the Dad's get a kid in the Kart, they buy something for themselves, like a Rotax.....

[Brian Garfield]

Wow Dale, sorry you had that experience.

Please let me explain that this is not how it works everywhere. That event you experienced would be less likely for kids that would like to attend Nationals, and even at the experienced local levels of competition. Keep in mind, how many Soloists show up at Nationals in Topeka for their first ever Solo event?

There are plenty of other regions that run MANY kids in karts, without problems most of the time. Do things happen? Sure, but not as your situation played out.

D.C. (and other regions I know of) runs 8+ kids, ages 5 and up, few if any delays, and the kids enjoy the competition. They don't expect a trophy, and I can assure you that my sons do not wish to be a "side-show", no matter how you word it. One has written great little stories for school about his "competition" in Peru, Indiana or Walnut Ridge, AR.

Is Solo easy the first time? Nope, that's why we enourage all kids to attend a Junior Kart School, to get exposure to cones. Although we haven't run into any devastating events as you describe, we'll probably soon require it to prevent any future problems.

Bottom line to me sounds like you had less experienced parent/child combinations at that event. It would be no different if you had a bunch of never-ever adult Soloists in one heat. There would be plenty of getting lost, and none doing their job correctly. It happens a lot at Solo events, but everybody doesn't give up and decide to go to the "track".

Brian

[Dale Seeley]

We were the only new kid there, so the creative course interpretation was limited to us. By the last run, he was on-course and even managed to win the 'B' class with a spin. Granted, the other two kids are still in the early phase of learning to drive a kart, which is what the class is about anyway.

The group saw clutch problems on course causing re-runs, my son threw a chain during a particulary tight, yet high grip right hander, causing reuns, it just seemed to me that if it had been a class of cars having that much trouble, a few people would have been upset.

The Atlanta Region is not new to karts, and they were very patient, but it probably took every bit of an hour to get six drivers through the start gate 4 times.

We did have a really good time with it though, didn't see any of the issues with aggressive dads or intolerant adults, and except for the 'reliability' issues I think it went well.

I personally am backing down from pushing hard for the kids to be on the same courses on the same days as the adults. Yes it can be done, but I would rather see it work on the same site with a different course during the same time as the other courses ae running. Maybe I'm wussing out, but I don't want to be the person to affect the run schedule of the National Champions with an exhibition group.

Once I/we start getting responses from parent in the regions around the country, we'll decide as a group what to propose to the SEB.

[Brian Garfield]

I don't disagree with running them at a different time, but I would still want them to run the same courses somehow. It makes sense to me from a coaching standpoint as well as logistics.
However, I can still see it being very difficult.

We should probably move this completely to email now.
bgarfield at gmail dot com

Thanks,
Brian