Should Programable Ignintions Be Banned?

Brandon Schroder

I live i alberta canada and the local kart club here is thinking of banning the programable ignitions. I have also heard of many other organizations planning to bann them, like skusa and asn? What is everyones opinion on this??

John Denman

quote:
Originally posted by Brandon Schroder:
I live i alberta canada and the local kart club here is thinking of banning the programable ignitions. I have also heard of many other organizations planning to bann them, like skusa and asn? What is everyones opinion on this??

This question has appeared a few times before in the Karting Website forum. It is important to note which class it would apply to 80 or 125.

80 is supposed to be more cost effective, ie, no front brakes, and lower cost motor. I would prefer not to see PI on an 80. It seemed the majority of folks polled in the past agree with this.

125 is supposed to be fast. It should allow a PI but I would suggest at a 20 lb weight penalty over OEM at local club races only. Of the folks polled they showed preference to PI for 125.

John Neilson

It is my understanding the IKF Region 11 has local option rules banning PI, must run non modified bbls and heads and run hard tires.
This is for the 80cc shifter class.
As a club, this might be fine, but I think that at a higher level, the rules should not restrict too much the potential of any combination. I agree that the PI does allow for more potential. It is not the only issue.
I have had discussions with others who proposed a limit on cc's. My question to you would be this, "Would your members want a local option rule that would require a different motor setup to compete outside of your club?" Do any of the membership have the desire to go to the Nationals? Or go run some Regionals?

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: John Neilson ]

Mike Speed

IMO, you can mandate OEM spec ignitions if the item can't be teched. I have said this before. I would like to see the entry-level guy's using cheaper products to keep cost down. But without a tech procedure it cannot work. What will happen if my company (Speed Concepts) offers a product that looks like OEM but is not (easy to do). The volume would be low but I could charge $1000 plus per unit (and people will pay it). Now you have a mess.

I see three ways to handle this.
1) Allow PI, without tech (open ignitions)

2) Get the OEM specs from Honda and find a test house to tech the units after each event delaying the offial results. (Not so good)

3) Have an aftermarket company (such as myself) manufacture a spec ignition (low cost) and provide equipment / procedure for tech-ing them.

I would choose number #1.

Mike Speed
Speed Concepts.

Mike Speed

quote:
Originally posted by John Neilson:
[QB]It is my understanding the IKF Region 11 has local option rules banning PI, must run non modified bbls and heads and run hard tires.
QB]

John,
IKF Rigion 11 follows the IKF rule book. PI are legal.

Mike Speed
Speed Concepts

Oscar Aguilera · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1614

I see an easier solution.
Keep the rules as they are and allow only 2 motors. Both would be sealed at the track and you can get either motor to run at your descretion. Both motors would be teched. No opening of either motor allowed. The PI guys would have to make their motors last and the curves would then have to be adjusted. As far as the argument of having to have 2 complete motors now, who at the PMT or Regional level does not? If you chose to run with one motor so be it. You would now have to buy pistons to last the event and rings as well. You don't have to mess up the current rules and everyone would adjust quicker to the change. All motor builders can de-tune their current stuff. No more staying late to put a new top end in. No more he changed this or that before during or after the first day of racing. The motor builders can still showcase their talents.

Just my Opinion.

TWO motors only.

Tim Blaney · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1127

Mike,

As an alternative to spec hardware, couldn't the organization in question mandate a given curve to be loaded into whatever box I choose? Then that curve could be tech'd relatively easily, correct?

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Tim Blaney ]

Darren Swisher

I am new at the whole PI thing, But is it possible to run more than one PI on a kart and be able to switch to either at the flick of of toggle switch?

Is lowering the cost on a specific portion of your budget the answer, wouldn't you still spend that money saved on something else you wanted or needed?

Darren

Mike Speed

quote:
Originally posted by Tim Blaney:
Mike,

As an alternative to spec hardware, couldn't the organization in question mandate a given curve to be loaded into whatever box I choose? Then that curve could be tech'd relatively easily, correct?

[ August 05, 2001: Message edited by: Tim Blaney ]

Yes,
This has been talked about. But this would mandate the uses of the PI.
Remember, one of the good things about the PI is that every engine setup has an equal chance. With a spec curve or and OEM setup one engine/pipe manf would have an advantage over another.

Mike Speed
Speed Concepts

John Denman

So rather than a spec curve, how about if the curve was limited to straight line, for example, no retard after it hits a peak advance as the RPM is increasing? Is it really that difficult to test?

In any event, the PI genie is already out of the bottle, and as Mike says, it is not that hard to pot a PI board inside a stock appearing box.

Also, the TM has an "OEM" box (sold seperately) that has a pretty good curve.

Gary Kozuma2 · Joined: 03 Aug 2001 Posts: 446

Mike,

Thanks for providing your input. Many people have a great deal of respect for your view, so thanks for helping us go in the right direction.

However, I would like to come back to your #3, build a non-programable box that is spec and built for all motors used in that class. I belive John is on to something in regards to the characteristics of the box. I bet that there are several of the top builders who would agree to help with the specs. Also, I'll bet Michael Mhild's company could build a tester box to tech the boxes at a race and at a reasonable price. Lastly, I think it would save everyone a lot of money in the long run, at levels below the "pro" class.

Gary K.

Rick Blood

Every time this subject comes up, it always concludes that you can not stop fooling with ignitions. The argument that there are tons of ways to get around the rules is true. Bottom line is that if the rule states stock ignition and you have an OEM appearing PI, then you are cheating. Can anyone explain to me what kind of joy, thrill, excitement you are feeling on the drive home, knowing that you just won by cheating? What about that nagging fear in the back of your mind that you just might get caught? What happened to your moral values? What would happen to your reputation? Was that damn trophy really worth it? If you are planning on moving up to bigger and better things, would you want that reputation to follow you?
It,s not like there is money to be made in karting so why can't people just be honest. I decided to race karts because of the simplicity compared to other forms of motorsports. Now all that seems to be changing. I'll keep racing legally and abiding by the values my parents taught me and you who must find ways of cheating can live with yourselfs and your tarnished trophies.

John Denman

The number of competitors in any class is usually the best indicator to whether the rule changes are in order. In some areas 80 or 125 is big enough to split the number of classes with some limits to power. "Speed cost money". In SKUSA and IKF there are multiple classes for 125.

For those who run at both local club levels and regionals/nationals, they need to decide if they would rather put the limited parts (head or OEM ignition) on their regional/national motor, or just build a whole different motor.

I veiw club racing as more of a laid back fun way to use up all those tires I bought new to compete at the regional/national level. I don't feel its up to the club members at my local track to keep up with the latest equipment because they may as well go regional/national racing if they did. Most folks who just do the club stuff have not made racing a priority in their time and money, and there is nothing wrong with that. At least they are involved and if they beat the regional/national teams due to local rules, thats OK too.

The rules should be democratic and voted by the majority. If they don't match SKUSA or WKA or IKF etc, so what?

Terry Tilton · Joined: 20 Jul 2001 Posts: 58 Location: Austin, Tx

Ignitions can definately be teched,easily, cheaply, and in all but the pro moto level, should be done this way:
When arrive at the track, your ignition box is taken by tech officials, along with all your competitors boxes. Then they are randomly distributed back to the racers. The only thing they have to take into account when they give you a box to make sure it is compatible with your year and make of motor. Piece of cake. End of programmable ignitions, and it didnt cost much.

Matt Kull

What is going to stop someone from putting in a really bad curve that is going to be given to someone else?