Brake wear

Stephen Buckley · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 861

Gary,
I know you are a big guy, but 440 lbs??? Wow! What is the weight minimum for your class? On a side note, you'd be perfect for the 250 IC/E class.
S

Mark Watkins · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 545

We have been down the road with brakes, from our Invader through our Margay Brava1 to our current K1 TopKart Viper.

With all the karts, the stock pads give inspiring performance for VERY limited duration. I know of one Top Kart team that puts new pads in every outing. This is unacceptable.

We hunted around and found two excellent solutions. Don Bootes of S&G Racing (909-335-2846) has a proprietary pad compound that gives good brake performance and is impossible to wear out in less than 8-12 outings. These dudes are pricey, but they do work. This solved the Invader's brake probs.

Our Margay, along with its jillion other problems and quirks, had a use once, spend $40 brakes. My driver's ability was once called into question by those who should know better, so I pledged to never send a dollar to that company again, so I looked for another solution. Motoquality in Colorado sent us a set of pads that modulated well and had great wear characterists. Problem solved.

Our Top's original pads were history in about 50 laps. This time we didn't give anyone a chance to impune Tiger, we just called Motorquality and adapted a set of thick Birel pads to the Top. We have used two sets since February.

What do we learn from this? Chassis manufacturers apparently want to sell a grip of pads. Bad idea Invader, Margay and Top. Sell a chassis with a quality, sorted brake system and I will buy more expensive things from you...like new karts.

Mark

John Van Nghiem · Advertiser Joined: 26 Jul 2001 Posts: 697

For you guys that have Brembo calipers, try the EBC FA47 pads for the rear. They last about 8 races! don't know about the front. The EBC's last the longest out of all the brands I've tried. Brembo pads are also decent, about 4 to 5 races.

John

David Tallant · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 35

My Track Magic with brembos are on the same set I started the season with. That is road racing and sprint, I think six races? They are only half gone.
For those who run through three sets a weekend, you must be fast, or crappy brakes???
Brembos are the hot set up.

Gary Kozuma1 · Joined: 26 Jul 2001 Posts: 386

Wow! one day on a set? That's just crazy. So my racing partner has an Energy/MBA/KGB/SKM 80 and he gets more like 8-10 races from a set. When new those pads are really thick. His brake is setup to shim when the pads are new and remove shims as the pad wears.

On another note, I've notice that when rotors are brand new, the first set of pads wear real quick, then settle in. On my Parolin/SKM setup, I wore out the fronts in about 10 days of testing/racing, the rears are still ok.

Just a quick comment on the Brembos, if you are new to them, be sure you understand how the pads are held in. A couple of years ago a guy had a bad off as his rear locked up when he hit the brakes. His pads were worn past the point where the pad is in the caliper, thus lodging in between.

Gary K.

Kevin Callahan · Posted: Thu Jul 26, 2001 7:08 pm Post subject: Brake wear

How many posts per day do I get before ekartingnews starts charging me rent??? ;-0

A related question...I just eyeballed my brake pads and I would guesstimate I have about 1/8 of an inch ledt before I hit bottom. Is there enough to last another day? How thick are new pads? I've run 1 day and the previous owner has run 3. Tracy kart with CR 125, FYI. Thanks in advance!!!

Tim Paul · Joined: 21 Jul 2001 Posts: 326

Kevin,

At CTS we use Brembo Master cylinders and calipers and all of us go a VERY long time on one set of pads. Tom Woods Goes for a race and then a LOT of practice without even thinking about changing them.

Maybe it has something to do with our floating rear caliper mount. But I think the biggest reason is the master cylinder. The Brembo master cylinders compensate for the expnsion of the fluid from the heat.

The Brembo pads are not cheep but when using them with our system they last a LONG time. We actualy use the EBC middle friction pads because the stock pads are to grippy, so maybe the stock pads wear faster.

Tim Paul
CTS Championship Race Karts www.ctsshifterkarts.com

Gary Osterholt · Site Admin Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 2769

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Mulvihill Jr:

I'm not sure the "kind", I have a Paul Tracy Kart, I love the kart, the brakes work fantastic, I have no complaints, I'm just surprised at the brake wear... but I know they work well so I'm happy. As I mentioned, I'm 45 pounds over the weight limit of my class... that's going to wear them a lot harder than someone that's 5 pounds over... I don't know if we'll ever be able to quantify my brake wear vs. someone else's due to driving style, weight, etc... just another point of reference for everyone.

Jeff,

I'm running a BRM with Brembo brakes. I run the shifter class, weighing in at 440lbs. I've been able to make up time on the track under braking. And the pads are still in good shape after 4 days of race/testing. You might want to look at what kind of pads you are using. See if they are genuine Brembo pads.

Gary Osterholt
www.garyosterholt.com

Gary Osterholt · Site Admin Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 2769

quote:
Originally posted by Kevin Callahan:
Gary and others,

My Brembos are the floating disc-type, too. The frame is a Tracy. glad to hear that you aren't going through a set of pads per lap like others responding in this thread! ;-) Just the same, I'm headed out to the garage this evening and give them a good look-see. Do the fronts wear out more quickly like they do in big cars? And does anyone know a good source for Brembo pads in So Cal?

Thanks everyone, Kevin

Kevin,

The front should wear out faster in theory. I know I run a lot more front brakes than rear on my shifter. As for Brembo pads, I know of a guy in Florida that sells them. But not out west.

Gary Osterholtwww.garyosterholt.com

Steven Tippett · Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2001 5:06 am Post subject: Brake wear

My expierence with brake problems related to the Birel Master Cylinder leaking, the pads howver lasted about half a season. A friend of mine's daughter races in the 80jr class and they run a CRG with Brembo's. They were going through brake pads like water, to the point where at a race at Mosport the pads lasted 3 laps. (Not kidding, and scary considering the speed at Mosport) The solution that for last month that has worked, is they cut a nose cone (front Spoiler) in half and made an air scope. There hasn't been a problem since. Looks kinda funny though.

Tim Paul · Joined: 21 Jul 2001 Posts: 326

Steve,

I am not fimilure with the CRG Brembo set up but I would have to guess that there is something wrong. It might be a wrong alignment problem or that maybe she is dragging her brakes a LOT.

At CTS we run Brembo calipers and master cylinders and I cant remember the last time that I changed my pads and I looked today and they are still half there.

Three laps is obserd there has to be another problem. I would think a piece of pine wood would last longer then that under normal conditions.

Tim Paul
CTS Championship Race Karts www.ctsshifterkarts.com

Steven Tippett · Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2001 2:47 am Post subject: Brake wear

Thanks Tim

I'm not sure if this has completely fix the problem or just helped it from being a big problem. So discussion is good. What seems to happen is the brake fluid boils in the caliper. So that is why cooling of the brakes have worked so far, I just wonder if there is a deeper problem. When we were in florida, the same problems occured and I did think she might be riding the brakes, but after close examination that wasn't the case. In all my years in racing I have never seen this much problems with brakes. I'd say she is very aggressive on braking, to a point where she stalls the motor sometimes under braking. The team kart to her also has the same problem with his brakes. One thing that I noticed was that the brembo disc is only 6 inches in diameter and every other brake disc on the shifters is 8 inches. I wonder if because of the small disc, it can't disapate (I think I spelled that wrong) the heat properly.
Also they have an old Santana chassis with old style CRG brakes as back up. After a long process doing things mid-evil (No fancy maching tools) we made an adapter plate at Mosport that fit those brakes to the newer kart. She had brakes that lasted the whole day, but said they weren't as good of a brake as the brembo's.

[ July 30, 2001: Message edited by: Steven Tippett ]

Alex Gappmayer · Joined: 30 Jul 2001 Posts: 301

Hello Steven!

CRG had little problems with this brake at the beginning of the last year. The first Karts had a non floating rotor at the rear axle. This caused a lot of drag and of course a lot of pad friction. The fixed rotors where immediately repaced by a floating one.
Maybe this is your problem. There are also different pad compounds available.

CRG started to use a slightly bigger brake disk about mid 2000. (Don´t know the exact size, but if you want, I can tell you the difference)

For 2001 they changed the complete rear setup again. Now they use a drilled disk, and changed the mounting position of the two rear calippers. Now both are better cooled by the air flow.

I´m using the new CRG UP 2000 brake system for over a year now on a 125cc shifter (ICC) (with the small, floating rotor at the rear)and I´ve no problems with it so far. I´m running at least 6 Race/Practice days on one set on the front, the rears do last longer.
I find it´s the best brake on a kart I´ve ever had. They work so smooth, and they have an incredible brake power.

You should check first, what setup they´ve mounted on the kart. Then you can sort it out. If you have any other questions about this brake I´ll help you.

Best regards

Alex