SCCA ignition rule

Ryan D Thompson · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: SCCA ignition rule

Is there any chance of getting the 30lb weight penalty removed from the F125 class. I don't see why it should be there. ICC and built motors with ignitions are in the same classes in sprint and road racing and even some of the time the ICC's are faster(at least from what I read). If the ICC is already faster I don't think the moto motors should get penalized an extra 30lb of weight.

Main reason I'm mentioning it is you might be losing some people who want to compete that are racing in other series with the set 385 weight limit while using programable ignitions. They won't want to change their kart by having to add 30 lb to it and change the way it handles with that much weight added. And if you suggest just plugging in an oem ignition for that event then you have no idea where the jetting should be.

I might write the SEB, but wanted to see what everyone elses opinions on it are. And yes I am in this situation so its also effecting me.

Andrew. james · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject:

I honestly think some icc motors are superior to a built honda w/ oem ignition right now for autox. I would also be willing to write a letter it would certainly cost less money than the alternative.

randy hofferbert · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 6

Ryan D Thompson · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject:

I think additional weight for ICC's will create the same problem. People having shifter karts for sprint racing and road racing will have to add 30lb of extra weight to their kart just to do an auto-x.

I'm suggesting rule compatability so the solo F125 rules allow shifters of other series such as Wka/skusa/wkc where programable ignitions are legal. The rest of the F125 rule set matches. You're specifically not allowing any of the moto karts out to auto-x without some big changes.

And yes it will put you in the mindset of needing to get a pi of a one time purchase fee. Of course you're always going to get the people that think you need new tires, new fuel, etc every single race in order to win. Just drive.

Here is the main case in my argument:
My reasoning is if the ICC is faster than a built moto with pi then you are already in the mindset that you need an ICC moto, not a pi to be competitive. The pi is much cheaper than an ICC.

randy hofferbert · Joined: 24 Sep 2005 Posts: 6

No argument in any direction here, just tossin' perspective. I think the difference is that you have sprint karting. In my region, we don't.

I see your point re compatibility with other series. But, other than spec miata being plopped wherever it is they're going to get replopped (because we need more miata classes, right?), accommodating crossover, doesn't appear to be a priority for solo2 classing.

Maybe it should be, but right now, with the rest of the classing structure, it isn't. And given the plethora of rulesets for karts, who'd want to tie their series to any/all that?

totally agree with the just drive sentiment, too.

Ryan D Thompson · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject:

In most cases I'd agree on not sharing rule sets. ex. spec miata.

But F125 is so close to every other shifter class rules already. F125 is 99% the same to all other open 125cc shifter classes. ICC's compete against moto engines with pi and are fairly equal if not ICC favorable.

We don't have much sprint karting here, but some large SCCA regions do. California and Texas come to mind.

I'm not sure what advisory comitee hears about F125 rule suggestions, but with a well presented case I think it has a good chance.

Andrew. james · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:16 pm Post subject:

I bet the main reason its the way it is is there are so few ICC karts at nationals and their not winning. I think it's a safe bet to say if drivers where equal an ICC vs stock ignition honda the ICC would win every time.

Larry MacLeod · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject:

Think about it this way... (and this might piss off some people who read this board) SCCA Solo II F125 doesn't exist to recruit Wheel-2-wheel karters. Plain and simple, it exists because solo people wanted a place to drive shifter karts. The VAST majority of people running F125 around the country started solo racing in something other than a kart. And that's the perspective the solo rules makers start from.

The 30lb penalty was added when the PI was made legal only a year or two ago. Prior to that there were no non-stock ignitions allowed. And, ICC wasn't even specified as legal. That was only added just recently. There have been grumblings among competitors to add a similar penalty to ICC engines, but that hasn't happened yet. But some people might be sending their letters in as we speak.

The reason there aren't many ICC's at Nationals is really two reasons. One is it just because legal a year or so ago and frankly, the top drivers in the class didn't go out and buy new equipment the first year. Solo people don't do that because we're cheap bastards.

The other reason is that through last year, Honda Motor Co. paid contingency money for a Nationals win (and Pro Solo, too). So it made more sense to run a Honda than anything else.

Some people might avoid ICC because of the external water pump. We sit and idle a LOT in solo. And the risk of overheating might be strong enough to keep some people away.

I personally think ICC is faster. I have a Honda (an old one, too). But if I come across a cheap engine replacement I might consider stepping up. And if they (SCCA SEB) aren't going to add a weight penalty, it might be the way to win, too.

IMHO, of course.

LM
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F125 #196
Old Birel/ hodgepodge Honda CR125
Lefty Funk
Detroit Region

Ryan D Thompson · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject:

Larry MacLeod · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject:

Chris M Johnson · Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 568

Ryan D Thompson · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject:

I am talking national events. I run my pi at the 385 weight locally as it doesnt really matter much. I have been auto-xing for the last 5 years, last 2 years at nationals, as well as many national tours. But the pi rule is keeping me from big events this year unfortunately.

If the majority doesn't want it thats fine. I was just wanting to hear the opinions. Smile

Just thought since the class is trying to increase numbers letting people who want to auto-x their karts might be a good idea.

I'm 6'1" 185 lb btw. Not heavy, but not light either.

Larry MacLeod · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject:

Brian Garfield · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 8:18 pm Post subject:

Yeah, and creative ways to break your back... Any more weight to this class and you can bet your ass we'll be looking at a 3 person kart lift each time.

First let me give you my current scenario so you can figure out what my bias is:
- I have a Moto, stock ignition, but can simply plug in my PI (came with my kart) with two curves, no waiting. Jets?? What are they? Haven't changed anything between PI and stock, although I am a little rich.
- I am a pure Soloist with no desire for w2w, simply based on danger, being a freelancer and supporting a family (meaning if I get severely hurt, I don't work, family starves).
- My wife runs with us, and we already have 280lb kart, and my back IS hurting (don't give me a line about lifting with your legs please).
- Both my kids run karts, and my 8 year old may be running SKUSA as soon as next year (jr 80cc shifter).
- Been in Solo for 7 years, 2 Pro Solo titles, first year in a shifter.

To me, with my knowledge so far, the 30lb penalty on PI is too severe, I'm thinking it should be more like 20lbs.
I definitely think ICC needs a weight penalty, perhaps 25-30lbs.

I DO NOT agree that we should drop weight penalties completely to cater to W2W people, it's not that hard to throw weight on real quick and although it's placement is important in handling, it's not AS critical for Solo (you still want it in the correct general area).

ICC's are much more expensive to run, and much more prone to damage, **especially for new owners**. If it became necessary to run an ICC to win, you still won't see me in one, championships be damned. I got into karts because of the lower expense and so far it's proving to be correct, changing that will put me back in a cheap car or sharing a ride.

This is simply my opinion, that you asked for. I may be incorrect in my thinking to some.

Brian

John Denman · Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject:

It easy to put way too much emphasis on the motor. I've been guilty of that as well.

First is 30 lbs a fair penalty for a PI? Maybe, maybe not. I run a PI and I weigh in around 410 without ballast so it doesn't matter to me.

On a sprint track an ICC has an advantage over a moto. Mostly due to drivability. The same will apply at most Solos. Whatever the PI version requires in weight, the ICC should match.

At the end of the day it's still going to come down to the driver. The format of Solo is such that you don't get much practice, you get a couple runs to nail the best time. Each time I make a run I get 1-2 seconds faster. I've noticed the same from others. HP has nothing to do with that part.
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John Denman
Producer for RTMP
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