moto builders, who to choose?

Vic Madrid · Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 7:59 am Post subject: moto builders, who to choose?

Well, I think it's time that I thought a little deeper about my motor and was gonna send it in to someone who knows what they're doing. Without substantial evidence I think I have a Banke -built CR125, that's based only on the word "Banke" being written in permanent marker on the PI CDI that came w/ the motor. (I have since changed to OEM CDI and stator).

I do know that I need a new cylinder head, a domed "RS" style w/ O-ring grooves. I don't know if I need any cylinder work. So, the first question is, can I just order an RS head somewhere? Or are they custom cut, specifically regarding the O-ring grooves and/or the height (assuming that affects compression)? Should I send in the whole cylinder/head assembly to Banke? Or I've heard that Eric Gorr also does good work? Is there a better shop specifically for the F125 type of racing?

All thoughts are appreciated. thanks

Vic
_________________
- Vic
- SCCA/WDCR F125 #54
- 2006 Tony//Kart Krypton 125

Ryan D Thompson · Posted: Fri Nov 25, 2005 8:27 am Post subject:

You can run the RS piston with a cr125 head. It has to be modified though. I have a banke built motor. If you tear it down could you send me pictures. I just put a new ring in mine the other day for the first time since I bought it so now I know what the insides look like. At least with the RS piston in mine it needs 2 basegaskets, and I think the head needs to be shaved too, but I'm not completely sure on that.

and btw are you selling the pi cdi?

Dan Cole · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1

Vic,I would like to suggest you check out an engine builder/racer I use in Dallas, tx. His name is Firouse Haggi 817-233-6344. He is very experienced with both hondas and yamahas.His motors are very powerfull and reliable. Also very important is he gives you good fast service and advice as well as a reasonable price.

Bob Monday · Joined: 21 May 2004 Posts: 91

I've owned a motor from Gorr (2000 Honda). I'll simply say that it was not my favorite. It got stolen, though, so that situation took care of itself...

I think that Gorr is better known in motorcycle riding/racing, not so much in the top levels of karting.

Andrew. james · Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2006 4:10 pm Post subject:

I'm sure alot of people have their favorite builders. I shopped around and decided to have a local guy (Mark Croslyn) build my motor. My second choice was pops out of texas, but I went with a local builder so I would have easier support. The motor he built for me is a rocket. The butt dyno tells me it is almost twice as fast as it was stock. If I have problems he is close. So I guess my advice is, if there is a builder that is close that is also good use them first.

Noah Stark · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:04 am Post subject:

for F-125, you need a motor that has tons of torque and a very useable powerband. The top-notch balls to the wall motos have only roughly 1600rpm of useable power. For auto-crossing, I build my motors to have tons of compression, big transfers, mild exhaust ports, and smaller carb. This makes the power come in sooner and hit soft, but once the power hits, it never stops pulling. You can get away with lots of compression and timing for a autocross as you dont run for more than a few seconds at WOT. Also a smaller carb will be much easier to tune and have more drivability. Big name builders usually dont have experience with this type of racing so I would go with somebody that is local and knows what it takes. For a autocross, the most power wont get you FTD, the smoothest driving will, whcih requires a motor that can deliver power smoothly and firmly.
_________________
Noah Stark
RIP my friend:Paul Dana you will be missed by many

Larry MacLeod · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject:

Vic Madrid · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject:

well, to update what I did (which is far less educational than the discussion going on), I elected to just repair rather than replace my cylinder. Needed a weld/grind and replating, a heck of a lot cheaper than a new modified cylinder. I know it won't be perfect, considering that the ports are designed to be run w/ a PI, but certainly this won't be the limiting factor in my times. I would love to have a bit more torque down low, as I find myself bogging quite a lot, but as Larry pointed out that's more driver error and unfamiliarity w/ proper gear selection than it is a problem w/ the motor.

Just need more practice.........

Let the more interesting discussions continue Smile

_________________
- Vic
- SCCA/WDCR F125 #54
- 2006 Tony//Kart Krypton 125

Noah Stark · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 9:09 am Post subject:

Larry, we must be running different types of AutoX's as mine out here in pittsburgh are very tight. 30sec to 40sec max time and no where near 75mph. Lucky if I see 55-60mph. We are also using either a semi-level skid pad at BeaveRun or a college parking lot AKA: No Grip! For these types of tracks, we have major traction problems, both at corner exit and launch no matter what the gearing. Also remember, torque moves the kart not horsepower. Horsepower just sustains it. My road-race motor has zero top-end. I shift at 11,800rpm. Wont go a penny over 12,100! Its all torque and I love it! I gear it straight up at 21/21 and I can pull out of the draft and continue to pull anybody I want. These are just my opinions and results from the tests I have done at my local events. They will not be the best options for everyone. Thanks!
_________________
Noah Stark
RIP my friend:Paul Dana you will be missed by many

Andrew. james · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:48 am Post subject:

I went to a small out of town event 2 weeks ago is was the most uncomfortably tight and slow course on a smallest lot I've ever driven.
After looking at my mychron after the event my top speed was 68 mph. I imagine that was through the slalom or on the small straight after the start.

I chose a peaky motor though I run a R4 pipe to balance it just a bit. My motor makes power from about 10.5-12.5k Other than braking and the occassional mis-shift when I need to downshift more than 2 gears for a turn it never falls below 10k. I drove a season on a stock moto with the R4 pipe on it and there was slightly less shifting involved but it was much slower overall. I think a motor built for sprint tracks would fit auto-x really well.

The way I calmed down the motor was by making a new gas pedal where the throttle cable attaches lower on the pedal giving me a longer pedal so I can modulate it easier. This change drop my auto-x time significantly. I did the brakes opposite so if I breath on them the kart violently stops.

Larry MacLeod · Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject:

Brian Garfield · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:38 pm Post subject:

Noah, you'd do yourself a favor and make it down to a couple of D.C. Region Solos. We can easily run up to 70mph on 60 second courses (as Vic with atest to), and we'll have 10+ F125 competitors at most events.
Heck Larry, it's not that far for you either... Laughing

Brian

Larry Andrews · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject:

Geez Brian, by that logic - I'm only a *little* bit far! Rolling Eyes

Anyway, here's a few things to consider when selecting an engine builder - not that I'd know but I do know some people who've been through the wringer.

1) Do they answer the phone? Respond to email? When? This month?
2) Are they willing to spend time to read the F125 rules so your engine will conform to your ruleset? (F125 is somewhat atypical - but what isn't in karting?)
3) Do they have familiarity with YOUR engine? (some guys don't know why a '93 transmission doesn't work 100% in '99 cases)
4) Will they give you a firm price on their work? (note that this is often impossible with rebuilds)

Coupla tips: Don't worry openly about cost. Don't hassle the guy. Both are likely to negatively affect the work you get. Trick is to make sure that the guy doing the work is the kind of guy you want to work with before you commit.

Brian Garfield · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject:

Good points Larry.

I'm a firm believer in someone willing to speak to me. Someone with a good work ethic. I like a builder willing to talk my ear off about what they feel is necessary.
Unfortunately, I think the best judgement is after the sale. Not just in the quality of the build, but are they willing to talk to you...for free.

Heck Larry, you're only 5 hours away if you pre-ship your kart and fly out... Laughing

Noah Stark · Posted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject:

Brian,
Id love to buddy, but see Im a road-racer at heart. When I make big trek's to races, Im used to gettin at least a hour of race time plus practice.... even on short tracks. Not really worth it to me even at 60sec a run, 6 runs a day, even a 2-day event is 12 mins track time. Thats why I dont run AutoX that much anymore unless its at BeaveRun which is about a hour away from my shop. I wish we could get more f-125's to show up locally and I would do it more. Most of the time, Im the only one and once in a while theres one other. I enjoy the rush of autoX but I love the seat time in actually racing a little bit more.
_________________
Noah Stark
RIP my friend:Paul Dana you will be missed by many