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Danny Lerner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 188
Location: United States, New York,
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 Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 11:31 am Post subject: Kawasaki Ninja 250R |
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Any opinions of swapping this motor onto a chassis?
Pros
Ease of use
Electric Start
Its no fussy 2 stroke
6 speeds
Service Intervals would be virtually non existant
Decent Power
Parts
Reliable
Quiet
Cheap
High Redline
Cons
Weight
Size
Does anyone think the size and weight be worked around well enough for the package to be competitive on an auto-x course?
Danny |
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William Sandoval
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 885
Location: United States, Puerto Rico, Guaynabo
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Danny Lerner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 188
Location: United States, New York,
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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It was mentioned in passing... I actually saw that thread after thinking about using the motor and started to wonder... How heavy is it really? It might not be as fast as a 125 shifter, but it would probably give an 80 a run for its money, and it would be as reliable as a rock WITH an electric starter and no fussiness...
Danny |
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Danny Lerner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 188
Location: United States, New York,
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| Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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In addition, what would stop the 250r from being legal? SCCA rules specify that a 250 twin cylinder 4 stroke can be used in place of a 125cc single cylinder 2 stroke....
Danny |
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William Sandoval
Joined: 03 Jun 2005
Posts: 885
Location: United States, Puerto Rico, Guaynabo
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| I stand corrected. |
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Danny Lerner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 188
Location: United States, New York,
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| Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:59 am Post subject: |
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New information - the motor weighs roughly 80 lbs...
Target weight is 385?
I weigh 140 (I'm a lightweight).
Figure you need pipe, motor mount etc - with a total weight of 20 lbs?
That puts the total at 240 without the shifter chassis...
How much does a shifter chassis weigh with no motor?
What are the weights of 80, 125, and 250 2 strokes? And also, what is the weight of the biland tag motor??
Danny |
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Larry Andrews
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: United States, California, SC Mtns
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 11:50 am Post subject: |
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I don't think that anyone on the KAC considered the Ninja or Interceptor 250 motors when they were writing that bit - but I could well be wrong. Seems like it was written to specifically allow the current crop of TaG motors at first guess.
Would have to bet that the CR250X motor would be vastly superior to the road bike motors. Lighter so you can add weight right where you need it added, and most likely much more powerful too. Oh, and electric start! 
Any fourstroke shifter will need a slipper clutch added or else catastrophic failure of the driveline is inevitable. The Yamaha Exciters apparently died an early death because of this problem. |
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Danny Lerner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 188
Location: United States, New York,
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| Posted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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The problem with the 250x, is that it is a single cylinder. The rules specifically state that only 2 cylinder 4 strokes of 250cc are allowed.
Yes, the rules were probably changed to include the biland and like, but I do not see why the ex250 (ninja motor) would not pass tech...
Danny |
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Danny Lerner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 188
Location: United States, New York,
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| Posted: Sat Nov 05, 2005 8:33 am Post subject: |
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With a rolling shifter weight at ~160, and a total driver motor combo of about 240, that puts total weight at about 400 - thats about 15 lbs over ideal... Only problem is motor would be very difficult to "place" on the chassis, and the chassis would probably not scale well...
But, it could work...
Danny |
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Josh Schultz
Joined: 07 Nov 2004
Posts: 122
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:14 pm Post subject: |
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I downloader the footage of the Gixxer Kart and it seemed to drive OK and it had a heavy GSXR 1100 motor on it. You could probably make the ninja motor work.
Actually the 2005 SCCA rules call for, "a mass produce single or twin cylinder, not to exceed 250cc." I've been dreaming of a 4 stroke 250cc motocross based kart for autocrossing for quite a while now. My Rotax gets smoked at the starting line. |
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Danny Lerner
Joined: 08 May 2005
Posts: 188
Location: United States, New York,
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I read and reread the rules over again, and, the rules specify that motors that are not motocross motors or icc motors CANNOT have gearboxes or be shifters... WHICH is probably why the biland was designed without a gearbox...
Grrr... Way to completely and totally limit any creativity and possibility of having a reliable motor...
I swear - shifter motors are like high strung brats who won't put out unless you buy them a new prada bag every week... I'm tired of the crap I have to put up with... |
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Larry Andrews
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 2847
Location: United States, California, SC Mtns
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| Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Stock moto - no hassles. You'd be surprised how little difference there is in laptimes...
Also, technically...if the ninja motor was stuck in, say fourth, without a way to shift it - and you used an axle clutch, you could probably run that motor. Bet it'd work okay as a very heavy tag type setup. |
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Alan Sheidler
Joined: 09 Aug 2001
Posts: 471
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| Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2005 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| Danny Lerner wrote: | Well, I read and reread the rules over again, and, the rules specify that motors that are not motocross motors or icc motors CANNOT have gearboxes or be shifters... WHICH is probably why the biland was designed without a gearbox...
Grrr... Way to completely and totally limit any creativity and possibility of having a reliable motor...
I swear - shifter motors are like high strung brats who won't put out unless you buy them a new prada bag every week... I'm tired of the crap I have to put up with... |
Please don't be so quick to complain about the rules. For SCCA autocross there is ONE National class for karts. For that reason, the flood gates could not be flung wide open to include anything any driver wanted to bring and run.
That said, there IS a process by which specific engines can be approved for competition in the class: Petetion the Solo Events Board. A reasonable letter with facts and comparative performance figures MIGHT get the job done. The "Exciter" Yamaha 225 4-stroke would likely have passed, IF anyone had actually requested it. I drove one for exhibition at a big autocross in Toledo, and had fun doing so. It was not competitive with the Honda CR125 engined karts, but certainly easy to start and drive, and not exactly slow.
In the past, there have been instances where a SCCA member requested a specific engine to be allowed in F125 for an adult driver. If I recall correctly, one was a Parilla of some sort? At least one region has a class they call "Adult Kart"; at the time I researched it, they were using a Briggs flathead and apparently having a ball with half a dozen entrants. As a Nationally competitive ride? Uhhh...
The point is that the performance could not have the potential to exceed that of a 125cc 2-cycle gearbox engined kart. That is an insurance requirement, and the reason why the rules are written as they are right now.
And I'd be really impressed if the makers of the Biland SA250 put their engine together so it would be legal for the SCCA!  I've driven one of those too, on a track and at a Pro Solo as another experiment in testing performance potential... A whole lot of fun, but not as quick as the 125 shifter, particularly from 0 to 30 mph. Put a gearbox behind one of those, and it might be a different story! Actually, I believe the Biland's concept arose because of a European ban on 2-cycles was looming via the FIA/CIK (an issue tabled for now); it runs in many areas with the Rotax and Leopard TaG classes. What a sweet exhaust note. 
One more opinion: I have had terriffic reliability from my CR125. Got it as a new motor, and I ran it for a couple of years just like Honda put it together. Eventually I did remove the Kick-start parts and plug the boss, but still run it with the power valves. Don't call it slow, I have managed to win my share of autocrosses with it, against some very good competition. As a National motor it is short on power perhaps.... (Or, since I am aging, maybe I need a little extra "oomph" to compensate for declining driving skills?) I don't know of many F125 drivers who have had reliability problems with the Moto engines. We have not seen enough of the ICC's to get a feel for that yet.
Alan Sheidler
Kart Committee member, speaking in an unofficial capacity!
BTW, what is a "prada bag"???  |
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Dan Davis
Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 2194
Location: United States, Kansas, Wichita
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:28 am Post subject: |
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I would think that in an autocross environment, the stock Honda CR should be more than adequate if the driver is up to the task. In stock form, the CR125 should be able to go for at least 2 seasons without any issues....kiind of like the bike in stock form. Personally, I have road raced both modified CR's and ICC engines and haven't had any reliablilty issues with them that I did not cause myself. At the one autocross I went to last season, I felt that horsepower was not the ticket, it was patience, kart setup for low grip tight course, and knowing when and where to drive fast. With that, if I were to autocross exclusively and most economically, I would go with a stock CR, stock 99 ign., a broad powerband torque pipe, light reeds along with the stock carb. I would bet that with a decent tunable kart, some sticky tires, and the engine setup metioned above, one would have a "no fuss" nationally competitive autocross package that should require minimal maintenance and care to run well for seasons on end.
Personally, I find the ICC's to be very reliable as well. In an autocross environment where one may run a total of 10 min per day, they to should last a couple of seasons before needing any overhaul type of maintenance. With the ICC's, I nomally go 10-12 hours on a bottom end and 5 hours on a ring and piston with no problems on road coarses where top RPM is sustained for long periods of time. If you do the math, that is 60-72 normal auto-x events on the bottom end and 30 events on the piston & ring. If anything, I would think that one might end up freshening the engine out of bordom (the desire to work on the racing vehicle) or fear of a potential problem long before it is actually necessary. Not to mention that when it does come time for overhaul, there are only a handfull parts that need attention.
I know that the valves alone for one of those fancy 5 valve head Yamaha 4s engines were around $80 each and they were all bent......there was more than that broken too. For the price of parts alone for that one rebuild/repair, one could have bought 2+ seasons worth of parts for the CR's and would be at least 40 lbs lighter and quicker. I think I would have to STICK with the reed valve configuration. No pun intended. |
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Ted Long
Joined: 08 Nov 2005
Posts: 29
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| Posted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:26 am Post subject: |
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Kawasaki ex250 = slow and heavy.
No good for a kart, what do the rules say about twin 2 strokes? Are they legal? Sizes?
The gixxer kart only handles well because you steer with your right foot. I don't think it will actually "handle".
Take a look at our toys, they make around 75hp and weigh only 226 lbs. without a driver.
Scroll down, there are 3 or 4 pics of it.
http://www.ekartingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=40020&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45 |
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