Broad-Based Chassis on the Market

Scott Kiefer · Joined: 07 Oct 2001 Posts: 12

Afternoon EKN, et. al.,

I'm just getting started in all this, but am looking to invest in a chassis (preferably used) that could be used for the broadest range of engine configurations, with the 80, 125 shifters and Rotax engines on the top-end and the 100cc 2-Cycle (KT-100) engine on the bottom.

Preferably, I'd like to start out with having all the brake hardware, shifting hardware, axel bearings, strut tubing and mounting hardware for the various engines in place that can be added-to and subtracted-from to accomodate whatever engine choice I wish to put into it. It would be nice to include a chassis that would meet spec for both the new Rotax Direct Drive and 2002 2-Speed shifter models, as well.

As I'm learning I'd probably just as soon have the front and rear brakes functioning on the kart, as not. Whether that can be run in a IKF/SKUSA race as configured, would be an entirely different thing. I'm planning on quite a long practice and setup period prior to my first race.

What manufacturers, models and model years would be best? Any ideas? I guess what I'm really looking for is a 125 Shifter chassis that can accomodate a 80cc shifter and an 100cc Yammer, as well.

I'm not looking to win the ProMoto Nationals with such a setup, obviously... just be moderatly competitive on a local level, and have alot of fun for not a whole helluva lot of money. (If I wanted to spend alot of money to go fast, I'd go race an old Mustang, Formula Ford or 'V' on the Vintage circuit or go buy a BMW and run in the GT Classes

.

Also, I keep hearing that maintenance on the shifters is significantly higher than on the Direct Drives. Is there some specific reason a stock CR80 or 125 engine, used on a Kart would be more volatile in that application than being mounted on a motocross frame and run for fun every weekend with the occasional race (which I used to do as a kid)?

I also understand that the shifter tarnsmissions are now almost 'semi-automatic' with the only use of a clutch being starting and stopping. I've not been on a new motocross bike in quite a while... last time I checked, you still had to engage a clutch to shift on a bike... maybe I'm just remembering the 'Bad Old Days' on Elsinores, but wouldn't the consistent use of a clutch help keep the transmissions from coming apart quite so easily?

Thanks for your time an input, it's highly valued! Sorry for the novella.

Feeling like a poor moth in a particularly beautiful chandelier...

-Scott

Rodney Ebersole · Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 5:30 am Post subject: Broad-Based Chassis on the Market

Scott,have you been out to many races around Denver lately? This is a good time of the year to get good used equipment from the top dogs that have to have a new one for next year. The last race of the year for IMI is Oct 21 also there is a IKF State championship race this weekend at CRE. At booth races you will find quite a few good used set ups for sale and could watch and see just how quick it is before you get it. The faster it is the more tires you have to feed it. Good Luck, it will be fun.

Sean Robbins · Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 5:49 am Post subject: Broad-Based Chassis on the Market

quote:
Originally posted by Scott Kiefer:
Afternoon EKN, et. al.,

Also, I keep hearing that maintenance on the shifters is significantly higher than on the Direct Drives. Is there some specific reason a stock CR80 or 125 engine, used on a Kart would be more volatile in that application than being mounted on a motocross frame and run for fun every weekend with the occasional race (which I used to do as a kid)?

I also understand that the shifter tarnsmissions are now almost 'semi-automatic' with the only use of a clutch being starting and stopping. I've not been on a new motocross bike in quite a while... last time I checked, you still had to engage a clutch to shift on a bike... maybe I'm just remembering the 'Bad Old Days' on Elsinores, but wouldn't the consistent use of a clutch help keep the transmissions from coming apart quite so easily?

-Scott

Motorcross motors run through the whole RPM range, and rarely spend more than a few seconds AT full revs. Shifters, on the other hand, rarely spend more than a few seconds NOT AT full revs. Therefore, we do place additional stresses on the motors. Work into that various speed modifications which turn the motors into powerful but tempermental hand grenades, and there's your answer. However, a stock or only slightly modified motor should be very reliable in a shifter (just not a front runner on tracks dependent on horsepower).

Shifter motors are not automatic in any sense of the meaning, but they do have synchronous gearboxes, meaning that as long as there is no load on the gearbox, you can shift them without a clutch. You are correct, the only times we use the clutch are to get them running and to avoid killing the motor when we come to a stop (or are spinning backwards).

You COULD run a 125 shifter chassis with an 80 or 100 cc motor, but you would forfeit some competitiveness. Shifter chassis are beefed up to handle the more powerful motors and often higher weights, as well as wide tires. However, if you are starting out and are more concerned with getting some seat time than podium finishes, putting a smaller motor on a shifter chassis might be the way to go.

Speed-wise, you will gain far more from properly tuning the chassis and learning how to drive it to its limit than from motor mods.

Scott Kiefer · Joined: 07 Oct 2001 Posts: 12

Thanks Guys, I really appreciate it.

I'm so light, at 126# soaking wet with all my clothes on, and at 35 years old I'm going to have to add a ton of weight to run in any Senior, FMX, G1, K1, R-Max classes anyway.

I'd rather have the kart's structure holding and distributing the weight as additional mass for strength and functional components (that I can balance and tune for) rather than having to add alot of pure 'dead' weight onto the kart right from the start.

Not too worried about it.

So any of the 125 chassis should be able to support any of the mentioned engines without any problems of linkages lining-up wrong, etc. as long as the correct motor mount for the engine is used. All the mount tubing on the chassis, itself, should be the same, right?

If anyone comes up with a specific 125 chassis/engine (if you're local, Denver) that you want to get rid of cheap, drop me a line!

and I'll come take a look at it.

Thanks again guys,

-Scott

Sorry... 'CRE', is that the track out east of Black Forest? Or the one at Bandemere? IMI's literally about 6 miles from my house, on the same country road, even ;0].

Tom Stephens · Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2001 5:38 pm Post subject: Broad-Based Chassis on the Market

Scott, I can't quite tell from your post if you've driven a # of karts. You might consider renting a # of different chassis/engines to get a better feel for what you may want.

Thinking about what you "might" want and actually trying out different chassis could save you money in the long run.

If you have already driven a number of karts,....nevermind

Tom Stephens
www.kartfinder.com

Rodney Ebersole · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2001 6:23 am Post subject: Broad-Based Chassis on the Market

Scott, CRE would be the one east of black forest. I think you can find there web site on EK's home page under Mountain Region.

Scott Kiefer · Joined: 07 Oct 2001 Posts: 12

Morning Tom,

No, I haven't had much chance to actually run different types of carts. At the local track there aren't any other types of carts for rent. Unfortunately, aside from their beat-on 6.5 and 5.5HP Briggs karts, which are OK, but nothing like the 100cc or shifters, that's it. They are good for 'momentum training', though

. Definitely not what I'm looking to spend the mega-bucks on.

All the used shifters at the shop for sale, either they won't let you drive them because they're on consignment, or they just don't let you test drive them... even if you've got the $$ in hand to purchase one you fancy.

This attitude's a little much to take, especially when you're seriously considering buying a used kart. Would you buy a used car (not much less money than these, but just less GO

without test driving it? No.

Hopefully I'll be able to hook up with the webmaster of kartmonster.com and drive his 100cc Yammer sometime soon.

Does CRE in the Springs or Bandamere's track rent the more capable carts (this question's for the Coloradoans...

.

You are right, though, Tom.

-Scott

-Scott

Tom Stephens · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2001 7:35 am Post subject: Broad-Based Chassis on the Market

Scott, I wanted to try out an HPV before I took the leap and found a track in Southern California that rented Margay's with HPV 4's. It was definitely worth the trip from Northern California to try it out. Well, OK, I sort of had to go down there anyway

Anyone know of any tracks in Colorado that rent 100cc or 80/125 shifters?

Or, with airfares way down, how about going to Las Vegas, I think they rent there, also Rotax. So you spend $500 for plane fare and rental, hopefully less. The firsthand knowledge you will gain might keep you from buying one kart, only to sell it because it wasn't really what you wanted.

OK, off soapbox

Keep us posted on what you end up with!

Tom
Kartfinder.com

PS. Scott, I also know of one dealer in Northern California that charges so much (I think it is $200) to take you out to a track for the day to try out a particular kart. If you buy from him, he will take that off the purchase price. Maybe someone would consider that in Colorado.

Also, you might try a kart school, especially if the karts they use are ones you might be interested in.

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: Tom Stephens ]

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: Tom Stephens ]

Rodney Ebersole · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:46 am Post subject: Broad-Based Chassis on the Market

Scott, If you see something your interested in at IMI, I would get the name and number of the person that has it there on consignment and call them as they should be more helpfull. There isn't any rentals at the other tracks. You might call Co Race as J.B. is a go getter when it comes to getting new blood into karting. If you can make it down to CRE on Sat.(practice day) there should be some shifter karts there for sale that you could take out for a spin. If not I would let you take my tater digger out for a test. It's not as fast as a shifter but its a modified direct drive tater digger thats as fast and faster than some of the yammees. If you were at IMI last Sunday you heard it run. Also Chuck Courter (Century Performance) recently opened a new kart shop @ Evens and Plate river drive, good people, check out his chassis set up guide on EKN's home page.

Chaz Clover · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 879

Good stuff from Rod, Scott.

But do not be decieved by RE's modest apraisal of his "digger". While it's not a shifter, that beast of his is one of those machines that will cause small children to wet their pants and give old men heart attacks!

Chaz Clover
http://www.kartmonster.com

quote:
Originally posted by Rodney Ebersole:
Scott, If you see something your interested in at IMI, I would get the name and number of the person that has it there on consignment and call them as they should be more helpfull. There isn't any rentals at the other tracks. You might call Co Race as J.B. is a go getter when it comes to getting new blood into karting. If you can make it down to CRE on Sat.(practice day) there should be some shifter karts there for sale that you could take out for a spin. If not I would let you take my tater digger out for a test. It's not as fast as a shifter but its a modified direct drive tater digger thats as fast and faster than some of the yammees. If you were at IMI last Sunday you heard it run. Also Chuck Courter (Century Performance) recently opened a new kart shop @ Evens and Plate river drive, good people, check out his chassis set up guide on EKN's home page.

Chaz Clover · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 879

Scott,

If you're looking for chassis that can fill a multitude of roles, there are several chassis made that fit the bill.

I run a Gold Firefox 100. It has mounting points for the shift lever and coolant system already in place so all I'd need is the actuall shift mecanism, rear sprocet carrier and mounting hardware and I could drop an 80 right into it. Add a new master cylinder and the front brake assemblies and I've got a 125. If you were to buy a Firefox 125 it would have the exact same chassis as the 100 - just different hardware.

Chuck Courter told me that Birel makes a similar chassis.

Chaz Clover
http://www.kartmonster.com

quote:
Originally posted by Scott Kiefer:
Afternoon EKN, et. al.,

I'm just getting started in all this, but am looking to invest in a chassis (preferably used) that could be used for the broadest range of engine configurations, with the 80, 125 shifters and Rotax engines on the top-end and the 100cc 2-Cycle (KT-100) engine on the bottom.

Preferably, I'd like to start out with having all the brake hardware, shifting hardware, axel bearings, strut tubing and mounting hardware for the various engines in place that can be added-to and subtracted-from to accomodate whatever engine choice I wish to put into it. It would be nice to include a chassis that would meet spec for both the new Rotax Direct Drive and 2002 2-Speed shifter models, as well.

As I'm learning I'd probably just as soon have the front and rear brakes functioning on the kart, as not. Whether that can be run in a IKF/SKUSA race as configured, would be an entirely different thing. I'm planning on quite a long practice and setup period prior to my first race.

What manufacturers, models and model years would be best? Any ideas? I guess what I'm really looking for is a 125 Shifter chassis that can accomodate a 80cc shifter and an 100cc Yammer, as well.

I'm not looking to win the ProMoto Nationals with such a setup, obviously... just be moderatly competitive on a local level, and have alot of fun for not a whole helluva lot of money. (If I wanted to spend alot of money to go fast, I'd go race an old Mustang, Formula Ford or 'V' on the Vintage circuit or go buy a BMW and run in the GT Classes .

Also, I keep hearing that maintenance on the shifters is significantly higher than on the Direct Drives. Is there some specific reason a stock CR80 or 125 engine, used on a Kart would be more volatile in that application than being mounted on a motocross frame and run for fun every weekend with the occasional race (which I used to do as a kid)?

I also understand that the shifter tarnsmissions are now almost 'semi-automatic' with the only use of a clutch being starting and stopping. I've not been on a new motocross bike in quite a while... last time I checked, you still had to engage a clutch to shift on a bike... maybe I'm just remembering the 'Bad Old Days' on Elsinores, but wouldn't the consistent use of a clutch help keep the transmissions from coming apart quite so easily?

Thanks for your time an input, it's highly valued! Sorry for the novella.

Feeling like a poor moth in a particularly beautiful chandelier...

-Scott

Scott Kiefer · Joined: 07 Oct 2001 Posts: 12

Morning Rodney, Chaz, et. al.,

I'll probably drop by IMI tommorow night after work (briefly, if it's before dark) with a pad of paper and a pen and start collecting names and numbers. Can't do it tonight... got to swap a T100 clutch slave and bleed the system, hoping that's all that's wrong with her...

There's not alot of shifter stuff out at the IMI shop that's not $6,000+ with the exception of a KX125/Emmick chassis for something on the order of $3800. Apparently it's an older setup though and I don't know much about the Emmicks, I've been informed to stay away from all but Honda engines, which I can understand. However, if I want to re-engine with a stock 80 anyway, it might be something to look into.

It doesn't seem like there are many 125 'rollers' there, though. A few Brava frames hanging up and the new 'Golds', but they all look quite new-ish.

Thanks much for the offer of the try-out of you're 'digger'. I think Chaz is probably right, though... 'Digger' isn't refering to the kart, but the action that occurs after seriously underestimating it

.

There's not much of a way to get to CRE this weekend, even though I'd LOVE to. I think hay hauling and stacking in prep for winter are supposed to be taking place.

I've been in contact with Chuck, briefly, apparently his kid's trying to get a new ride for next season and is looking to sell a couple of chassis... a little too rich for my blood at the moment... layoffs just announced here at work and everyone's under threat... of course, if they don't want their install-base of customers to rise up in arms against them, it wouldn't do to whack one of the three PC Applications Techs for the Western Hemi area

. Still plotting, strategizing and fingering the checkbook.

Thanks guys!

-Scott

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rodney Ebersole:
[QB]Scott, If you see something your interested in at IMI, I would get the name and number of the person that has it there on consignment and call them as they should be more helpfull. ... If you can make it down to CRE on Sat.(practice day) there should be some shifter karts there for sale that you could take out for a spin. ... Also Chuck Courter (Century Performance) recently opened a new kart shop...

Chuck Courter · Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2001 6:54 am Post subject: Broad-Based Chassis on the Market

quote:
Originally posted by Scott Kiefer:

I've been in contact with Chuck, briefly, apparently his kid's trying to get a new ride for next season and is looking to sell a couple of chassis... a little too rich for my blood at the moment...

Scott,

Just to clarify, Dustin is not and has not been "trying to get a new ride for next season". You told me that you were looking to save money so I priced you Dustin's present set-up as well as another that I had available at the time. Dustin will continue to drive the Birel chassis' and I will continue to sell the Birel chassis'.

Chuck Courter
Century Performance, Inc.

Scott Kiefer · Joined: 07 Oct 2001 Posts: 12

Ooops,

Sorry, Chuck, my mis-assumption. It just seems that there are alot (most) of the people who do this seriously run one chassis per year, then automatically 'shift-up' to the next year's 'newest and greatest' almost automatically.

-Scott

quote:
Originally posted by Chuck Courter:

Scott,

Just to clarify, Dustin is not and has not been "trying to get a new ride for next season". You told me that you were looking to save money so I priced you Dustin's present set-up as well as another that I had available at the time. Dustin will continue to drive the Birel chassis' and I will continue to sell the Birel chassis'.

Chuck Courter
Century Performance, Inc.