Roll Cage in karts

Pat Calhoun · Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 8:56 am Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

I was asked a question about karting that I had no good answer for, "Why do the shifter Karts have no rollcage"? I did not know the real answer and was wondering why this has not become a safety issue? With all the broken necks and backs this is a good question. I know all of us are too tough to admit it but a roll cage would be a advance in safety.
I have a freind who lost a son in 1960 in a sprint car accident, he was decapitated because there was no roll bar on these cars in those years. After discussing this with him he told me that the roll cage was initiated into sprint racing after several of these type of accidents.
I know that the mini sprints use a type of roll cage but all that is needed is a roll bar and arm restraints and possibly some sort of leg restraint.
IMHO - I know this is a touchy subject but I think that many people would be more attracted to karting if this were done.

Pat

Keith Archambeau · Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 9:27 am Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

Pat, You are perfectly correct. Touchy subject! I have been asked the same question more than once. The responce I have goes something like this. First of all roll cages would be a great idea. Although the majority of accidents in karting result in little or no injury. Karts are relitivly light in weight. Unlike larger cars with alot of kinetic energy. Like when a winston cup car spins. They go arround a couple of times, hit the wall, come back accros the track and collect some more cars that do the same thing. A kart rarely spins more than 3/4 revolution, due to mass vs. available traction. When a kart hits another kart the weight differencial between the kart with driver precentage wise is not that much greater than the driver being hit body weight. Another aspect is that in a kart crash, when the driver is ejected, is similar to a motorcycle crash.(not on the street with cars involved)Like in road racing bikes.
Still I think roll cages are not a bad idea at all.
Roll cages would present the following but not impossible tech issues.
Roll cage, seat belt harness system with approved & tested ancoring, with compadable seats, arm restraints, leg restraints, fuel cells, And this is where it gets sticky, ON board fire extingushier system! Remember the driver is now tied into the kart. All corner workers to have fire extinguishers that are also trained to use them. No practicing on your own.
RACE!

John Denman · Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 11:19 am Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

A nephew of mine used to run a Champ Kart that has a roll cage and belts etc, on ovals. He ended up on his roof about 4-5 times a year.

Would roll bars really help much? Maybe, but I think you would be surprised at this consideration; The more safe we perceive a machine is, the more dangerous we handle it.

Got Air Bags? Sure now we can drive faster to keep our opportunites for death the same as without at slower speeds.

I think no rollbar actually keeps us from wanting to risk showing the crowds the undersides of our karts. As in my nephews case, his class is the only one with a rollover at every other race meet.

I think a good neck brace, and more important, respect, has a pretty good safety factor.

Gary Kozuma2 · Joined: 03 Aug 2001 Posts: 446

I also believe that the roll cage would have a tremendous effect on how the chassis flexes. We get into issues of suspension and differentials.

Gary K.

See all you cool cats at hot Willow!

Roy Harris · Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 2:09 pm Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

Hi,

Gary brings up a good point about the way the chassis handles. If you installed a roll cage wouldn't it raise the roll center and make the kart more prone to roll overs? Just a guess, perhaps a more knowledgeable person can confirm or deny this.

Roy

John Bosanek · Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 2:42 pm Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

For some reason, this question always gets to me......I've said it before on other forums I'll say it here; Ask anyone who has raced an outlaw kart or mini-sprint. Cages make things safer. During the time I raced outlaw karts we had cages that set on springs with receivers so that the flex of the chassis was effected little, if at all. These karts are plenty fast (CR 500's) and weigh less than a weighted down shifter. In my experience they don't make you drive rougher. They don't make things more expensive (my last outlaw kart cost WAY less than a new 125 shifter).

Using excuses like these are just ways of avoiding the issue. Using statements like it's not a go kart, or it changes the "spirit" of karting are valid points to some. In my personal opinion, adding a cage is no more harmful that exteding the rear bumper to cover the wheels. Sure you are tied to the kart. That's why you wear a nomex suit (which really aren't that hot and cost less than my karting suit), 5 point hanesses, and arm restraints are for.

Stepping off soapbox

John

Jeff Carpenter · Joined: 01 Aug 2001 Posts: 4 Location: Harpers Ferry WVA

Over the past 30 years I've raced bikes (RR), Karts and cars(F-500). I've always been told the reason we can't use cages is cause of all the reasons that have been already mentioned. A simple hoop could be installed on any type of Kart if one didn't mount it on the "flexing" part of the frame. It would need to be in double shear and use VERY large HEIM joints at the base but it could be done.Look at Wayne R.'s Kart.I fought the "POWERS that BE" about this several years about this and was told to forget it even though I was going to use belts along with the bar.I'm so old I remember cars with no bars or belts. Nomex suits,for a good one,are expensive and very hot very very hot if the long johns are used,HINT:it's great to wear under your Kart suit on a cold day.I'f you can get it figured out give me a shout Jeff Roundmanracing@AOL

Kevin Callahan · Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2001 4:22 pm Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

I concur that rolling a kart is safer and less likely given the weight/mass/physics issues already mentioned above, But having flipped a full-size car in a sportscar race and been thrown out (damn cheapo seat belts), I have no objection to a rule requiring rollover protection in karts. I figure the handling argument is nullified by the fact that a rule would require everyone to have one. After all, we race on spec tires and couldn't we debate whether spec tires are as safe to race on since non-spec gumballs are stickier and therefore improve handling?

Of course, like any racer, I'm noe gonna do it until somebody tells me I have to.

Stephen Buckley · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 861

All,
This subject has been bantered about many many times in the past. At one time, I was going to mount a simple u-shaped pipe made from 7/8 inch stainless steel marine gunnel railing material. It's cheap, strong and fairly lightweight. Using very basic marine clamping hardware, it would mount right behind the seat, with the total height about the same as the top of the helmet. It's one of those "I'll get to it someday" jobs.

Pat Calhoun · Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2001 6:25 pm Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

Do any of the sanctioning bodies have rules against this or seatbelts, restraints?

Pat

John August · Joined: 02 Aug 2001 Posts: 140 Location: El, Cajon, CA

are there any roll-over injury stats for karts. if your'e obsessed with safety, race SCCA, it's more $ but then it's worth it right?

JA

John August · Joined: 02 Aug 2001 Posts: 140 Location: El, Cajon, CA

are there any roll-over injury stats for karts. if your'e obsessed with safety, race SCCA, it's more $ but then it's worth it right?

JA

bird · Joined: 17 Jul 2001 Posts: 147

you know, I think this is one of the things where karters are intelligent enough to be given a choice not a prescription. Americans are luckier than us europeans,you have thriving champ kart, 1/4 midget etc scenes for if you think karts are too dangerous. I also think it's a bit odd to be advocating this sort of thing before you have universal full rear bumpers and seen the effects of those.

John Denman · Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2001 5:58 am Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

quote:
Originally posted by Mary-Ann Horley:
I also think it's a bit odd to be advocating this sort of thing before you have universal full rear bumpers and seen the effects of those.

Good point indeed. The majority of flips come from taking a wheel ride after hitting someone from behind. I think we will add full bumpers to our karts for next year.

Pat Calhoun · Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2001 6:44 am Post subject: Roll Cage in karts

quote:
Originally posted by John August:
are there any roll-over injury stats for karts. if your'e obsessed with safety, race SCCA, it's more $ but then it's worth it right?

JA

If you would have read the post more carefully you would see that this was brought up to obtain an explaination to others not involved in karting why there is no use of roll protection. I do not see anyone advocating just discussing, and concern for safety in any sport should be looked at, your statement to "race SCCA" will do great things for the growth of karting.
Does the world of karting want to wait until there is a horrific death captured on TV to make changes? That also will do wonders for our sport.

Just my Nickles worth

Pat