Shifter costs and the PMT

[Marc Miller]

Darren-

Why should any of these manufacturers spend any money when they don't need to. They already have the business.... and besides.. karting to these corporate giants makes up less than one tenth of a thenth of a % of their business.

MM

[Jake Thompson]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tim Blaney:
[QB] I am confused as to how making a spec ignition and pipe is going to keep the motor development in check. As Tim Pappas stated before, they have a budget of $X to run the PMT. If you limit their spending in one area, they will simply spend more in another area.

We often here the argument that the FC/ICC motors are just as fast stock as a built moto motor. That may be fine and dandy, but what happens when you start to develop the FC/ICC motors? Racers being racers, they are looking for the extra advantage need to win. The development will go on, it's part of the game.
[QB]

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Certainly spec ignition wouldnt keep motor development in check, but Im told that with a Stock Ignition, Engine builders can't do some things they can do with Programmable Ignitions. Obviously motor development would go on, but the gap between a good motor and a regular motor probably wouldnt be as large (or so my thinking tells me).
Once again I agree with you that motor development will go on if SKUSA goes to purpose built. First of all, you can only do limited things to an ICC anyway if you stick to FMK rules, making it a great motor for S2. I think Formula C, would work better for S1/Sp because when you buy an FC its not like buying a Honda. An FC comes pimped out. It comes from a giant factory in Europe with many engineers, who have already made it as fast as its going to go, in so called "stock form". You can develop it as much as you want, and because of how brilliant some of the engine builders are here, the motors would no doubt get better, they just wouldnt get much better. Obviously people will still spend their budget, but i just think FC would make it easier on the guy who has less budget. The gap between an awesome motor and a stock motor wouldnt be that big... and besides its actually made for a go-kart Thats my 2 cents.

[Marc Miller]

Ginant manufacturers? Many euro FC manufacturers "complexes" are the size of my storage unit in my apartment building.

No misconceptions... there are guys like Reinne, Leary, etc etc.. here that have just as much development experience, equipment and know-how to rival some euro engine manufacturers.

MM

[Doug Welch]

All this yamering about motors is not where we spend our money. Don't get me wrong, a great motor is expensive, but of the total $ spent, it is a small part of the budget. The big ticket items are traveling, time and tires. Motors are less than 10% of my total costs. Stock ignitions are not the answer because of the difficulty of teching them to make sure they are not altered. If SKUSA (or who ever) handed out ignitions and then teched for alterations afterwards(collected them at impound), well then it may have a small impact.

But I feel very strongly that a spec pipe and ignition would save at most $1,000 to $2,000 per year. That is a drop in the bucket compared to travel expenses. Its costs more than that just to attend a race for basic expenses.


I like Tim P's observation best. Its not the cost that we need to concentrate on, we need to concentrate on the marketing side. The series needs to be marketed so that we can go get sponsorship to cover some of our costs. The first question we were asked when we started looking for money was, "Who is going to see my logo and product?" Right now, your mommy and daddy. We got the product, now its time to market it.

Doug

[Darren Swisher]

Are we stuck in the proverbial catch 22? We cannot secure a major series sponsor because of lack of a large audience. Yet we don’t have a large audience because we have no major sponsor to support the series.

Specifically, what needs to happen here? SKUSA is for profit business, do they have the means? An out of industry sponsor probably knows nothing of SKUSA or shifter kart racing. Can sponsors from with in the industry afford what it would take to get a TV deal.

Sorry, I am full of more questions than I have answers.

Darren

[Jake Thompson]

Ok Marc, you got me. To call them giant was definitely a little much, but you can't downplay the bigger manufactures like TM, Vortex, and Pavesi. On the same note you can't downplay Reine, Leary, etc.
I give up. You guys know better than i do, and I cant argue with your point that someone will always spend more money to raise the bar.
Jake Thompson

[Rob Hogenmiller]

quote:

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Originally posted by Darren Swisher:
Specifically, what needs to happen here? SKUSA is for profit business, do they have the means? An out of industry sponsor probably knows nothing of SKUSA or shifter kart racing. Can sponsors from with in the industry afford what it would take to get a TV deal. Darren

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In my opinion it's no secret what it would take to be a Pro Sport. It would take the WILLINGESS to make the sport easy to attend and CHARGE ADMISSION like any professional entertainer/sport does. It doesn't need TV to be a Pro Sport. They've shown they can get people to attend. Obiously they have found the results, but don't capitalize on them. Are we looking for FAME or are we looking for it to be professional sport?

TV Deal-Buy the time it's not that expensive and does it have to be Speedvision or ESPN to get results? What kind of results would you be looking for with TV anyway? To sell ShifterKarts I mean cmon they are $8,000 dollars new your potential audience is small there. So, I don't think selling shifterkarts would be what you'd be planning to get for results.

Companies sponsoring- Well Pepsi was a GREAT start for one race. I think a Sponsor is going to need more bang for their buck with SKUSA than a one race deal. Starting small would be a better start than not starting at all.

A series needs an associated sponsor- Title Name. That way it goes out with ALL the press releases SKUSA sends out. (i.e. Toyota Atlantic, EA Sports Supercross, PJ1 Arenacross, Buy.com Golf Tour)
Yet to read a release about a ProMoto race this year though. Tons of magazines out there with Autoracing a simple photo and release more than likely it would get printed up to thousands of AutoRacing enthusiasts.(Personally I'd be looking at car manufacturering company or a musical group/recording artists. I believe SKUSA was in talks with Ford earlier this year)

The Xtreme thing is just begging to take SHIFTERkarting under it's wing, I don't see any interest in the organizations though.

Even if you only surf one wave in your life, It's a great Feeling! Paddle, Paddle, Paddle....

I think ShifterKart autocrossing gets associated with TireRack.com and Honda pays contigency and the entrant turnout is dismal-Sorry Guys.

On the TV note what kind of commercials might we see with a ShifterKart race? Asking what could we sell? Because if they are selling then they come back. I don't think trade commercials would make enough dollars to continue to advertise so it might be something LIKE Music Artists or maybe you actually sell your show. Like Blue Torch you have Music Artist in your show that way your show is really a commercial.

I think the important thing to remember is what are you trying to accomplish. Are you trying to develop a Pro Sport or are you trying to build the growth of karting because they are two totally different things at this time and as Bill Murray said,
"That's a Fact, Jack!"

Making a job at SKUSA VERY Difficult.


(Edit-Added some humor)

[ August 04, 2001: Message edited by: Rob Hogenmiller ]

[John Barnum]

One of the easy ways to contain motor costs s to make a claiming rule. If you raced in that class and finsihed the main race, you could claim any motor in that race group. Take the $3500.00 motor, put a figure of $4000.00 and it yours. OR, go the way of SCCA with their SRF, Rousch builds the motors for SCCA and customers by a sealed motor. The motors must be sent back to Rousch for rebuilding and sealing.

[Steve Willis]

I have to agree with Tim and Doug concerning the cost of the PMT. Tires, Time and Travel. As a private team (even though we run under the SSC/CRG banner) running the PMT the costs are covered out of our pocket and what is generated out of the shop. There is no way our shop can generate the needed funds to compete with the higher level teams. We have several sponsors that help support our efforts. What the sponsors don’t cover is Time away from work (Vacation time), Time away from the shop (Lost sales) and Time away from the family. Travel expenses can be reduced by spending the time at the beginning of the season looking for the bargains (again Time). Tires, well everyone knows this cost. (Most if not all the teams have little or no control over tire costs.)

We all can complain about these cost and others. The one fact remains is that we all knew this going in. The one thing none of us were sure about was how high the bar was going to be. We can accuse people or teams of cheating. But in all honesty I feel that a few teams did there homework over last winter and other teams just thought they were going right to the top with the program they had. Basically the PMT season is over and my hats off to the top 10 in points. Those teams are the ones that did there homework. The rest of us better go back to study hall and get to work.

Steve Willis
Willis Brothers Racing

[Terry Tilton]

Rob-
Charging admission doesnt automatically make it a pro sport, and it doesnt mean that hoardes of people are going to show up. Plus, SKUSA (or whoever it ends up being) needs to package the race in a more spectator friendly package, otherwise, they'll never come back. Let me give you an example.
I attended the SKUSA Red River region street race here near Austin two weekends ago. The crowd was at its largest at around 1:00pm. They had all paid $7 to get in also. It was around 1000 to 1500 hundred people. There was a driver parade, this and that, sky divers, and some other stuff. But it took until 2:30 (thats an hour and a half, in 102 degree weather) to start the mains. First class out: 60cc. Kind of cool seeing kids that little go around the track fairly fast. All four of them. It was neat for 5 laps, they ran 10. Then they had a trophy presentation for them, then a driver introduction for the 80cc junior, then they finally rolled the 80's out no less than 30 minutes after the 60cc race was over. By that time, it was 3:30, the crowd had been there 2.5 hours, in blazing heat. Fortunately, that ended up being the most entertaining race with the biggest field (16) and close racing and multiple wrecks, all at a ill-designed haybale chicane. (thats another story). By the time the headline class rolled off it was nearly 6pm, I was near heatstroke (not kidding) and most if not all of the paying crowd had left.
Now, I ask you, was that the best way to bring a race to the people? NO!
Should have started with the main race, or with the biggest class (80cc in this case) as a warmup show, then the main class. Then let the rest of the races run. I truly think the only way it will become a true professional sport is if karting becomes a warm-up act for big car racing on big car tracks (or run in conjunction with other events such as carnivals, concerts,etc.) until we cultivate a following. And as far as running on the big tracks, watching the 250's is more entertaining because of the track size and speed difference. I was at laguna seca and the 250 are fast, but they still looked a little out of place on the straights, a 125 would have looked really slow. And thats a tight track for a car. Getting a title sponsor for the series should be one SKUSA or anyone else's top priorities.

[Erik Frank]

quote:

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Originally posted by Terry Tilton:
Rob-
Charging admission doesnt automatically make it a pro sport, and it doesnt mean that hoardes of people are going to show up. Plus, SKUSA (or whoever it ends up being) needs to package the race in a more spectator friendly package, otherwise, they'll never come back. Let me give you an example.
I attended the SKUSA Red River region street race here near Austin two weekends ago. The crowd was at its largest at around 1:00pm. They had all paid $7 to get in also. It was around 1000 to 1500 hundred people. There was a driver parade, this and that, sky divers, and some other stuff. But it took until 2:30 (thats an hour and a half, in 102 degree weather) to start the mains. First class out: 60cc. Kind of cool seeing kids that little go around the track fairly fast. All four of them. It was neat for 5 laps, they ran 10. Then they had a trophy presentation for them, then a driver introduction for the 80cc junior, then they finally rolled the 80's out no less than 30 minutes after the 60cc race was over. By that time, it was 3:30, the crowd had been there 2.5 hours, in blazing heat. Fortunately, that ended up being the most entertaining race with the biggest field (16) and close racing and multiple wrecks, all at a ill-designed haybale chicane. (thats another story). By the time the headline class rolled off it was nearly 6pm, I was near heatstroke (not kidding) and most if not all of the paying crowd had left.
Now, I ask you, was that the best way to bring a race to the people? NO!
Should have started with the main race, or with the biggest class (80cc in this case) as a warmup show, then the main class. Then let the rest of the races run. I truly think the only way it will become a true professional sport is if karting becomes a warm-up act for big car racing on big car tracks (or run in conjunction with other events such as carnivals, concerts,etc.) until we cultivate a following. And as far as running on the big tracks, watching the 250's is more entertaining because of the track size and speed difference. I was at laguna seca and the 250 are fast, but they still looked a little out of place on the straights, a 125 would have looked really slow. And thats a tight track for a car. Getting a title sponsor for the series should be one SKUSA or anyone else's top priorities.

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I ran at that event (in S1, the headline class) and I was wondering if we were ever going to race, with all those red flags in the preceding classes. It was disappointing to see all those people leave. And it WAS hot. Damn hot. In my opinion, it would have been better to have all the trophy presentations at the end.

-erik

[Terry Tilton]

Absolutely should have had the trophy presentation for all the classes at the end. And only driver intro for the headline class. Yeah, its neat to have your name called out, but if there are 8 or more classes, it gets a little old. Roll out the show, if the fans want to stay longer than that and watch everyone else, they will. Fan friendly. That should be a top priority. I cant even get my wife to go help me at my races, why, too much damn waiting around. Fans dont show up for the saturday walk through all nfl teams have, they show up for the game, and then leave. They start on time, they have a short half-time, and besides tv timeouts, keep things rolling. Nascar-fan friendly, College football and pro football-fan friendly, all major professional sports-fan friendly, kart racing-always, ALWAYS, behind schedule. Not good.

[Rob Hogenmiller]

Obviously charging doesn't automatically bring people out to the show, nor did I ever state that, please don't put words in my mouth. When we have events like Barrie supposedly 60,000 and Rock Island around 30,000, that seven bucks a pop is looking pretty big Eh?

Those two races alone would generate well over a 500,000 million dollars based on your charging fees. I also mention in other post or this one not sure, that we need to stop going back to the events that only get 50 people to watch, like Jacksonville/Marshalltown. (I'm not even saying we would need to use those two events just using them as reference examples that Karting can stand alone on it's own two feet.)

Sure it would be great to attach to car racing/Superbike events, but if Karting isn't bringing in people to these events why should the promoter/organizers give you any of the cut I ask?

I doubt Supercross would want to be associated with karting. We would be a distraction to there show and would take away from the focus of their growth. Maybe I can't see how we would be an added value to them.

Pro Sports are founded on the basis that it is a form of entertainment that people are willing to pay to see. You can't just tag along for a Free ride. Sure it might make you look better, but it isn't going to make the sport go Pro. Yes it might help you raise Sponsors, yes it might cut cost, but it's not going to turn into a Pro Sport.

A Pro Sport is one where individuals and teams have an opportunity to make money not just save cost through Sponsors. There needs to be a good size purse that is available. To do this it's no secret that Fans are the source of income to generate these.

I can't think of one Pro Sport that is strictly based off Sponsorship & Exposure, Which is what I see quite a few claiming to be the secret of making it a Pro Sport.

Are we trying to make it a Pro Sport or are we just looking for ways to cut cost and gain exposure?

I'd like to see it be a Pro Sport not just one made to gather Fame, Status and do it for free. Maybe thats good enough for some, but I'd like to see it GO ALL THE WAY!

[Terry Tilton]

Rob-
Go all the way to what?! A self-supported, major title sponsored racing series generating millions of dollars? Get Real, dude! Hows that going to happen without tagging along to already established racing series to develop a fan base? Do you honestly think that if Pepsi or Dell or whatever puts their name on a series and a big fat purse up for grabs and all these kart teams come from all over the country, that 50,000 people will show up? Hardly! Aint gonna happen. Aint gonna happen in a parking lot, aint gonna happen at some run down track out in the boonies. Start charging admission at Barrie and rock island and see what happens to the attendance.
Attaching karting to other races like the Winston West race, or Portland CART, or the Superbikes is a great idea because it will bring a younger audience in, it helps pay the rent for the bigger series to use the track, and karts wont drag a 10qt. pan of oil all over the track and delaying things for an hour. When the race teams see these karts flying by, they take notice,so do the track operators, the sponsors, fans, its good business. But just hosting a kart race somewhere without something else to pull in fans isnt going to work until kart racing loses the old image of a sears yard kart, and people become familiar with these 100mph road rockets. You are just jumping the gun thinking it can hold it own event. Its like everyone wanting tv coverage yet we cant fill up the stands. Look at the XFL.

[bird]

The World Championships is attaching itself to F1, but FSA is a pro sport already