Shifter costs and the PMT

[Steve Rickman]

I have looked at the whole scenario of running a PROMOTO Program however it is completely unrealistic. Back when the Constructors series was running we were much smaller then as a team and were still able to run at most of the races. That series was still expensive but it was much more realistic than the promoto is, Now I am not saying that we should pattern Pro Moto after the Constructors. To me the reason is quite simply the cost of the engines, these moto engines are totally out of control, the money and time that is put into these things is ridiculous, especially when you have to turn around and try and sell them to your customers who cannot all afford these top of the line engines. If SKUSA or similar programs ran a program like the European ICC class these series' would be much more realistic. The engines can be bought fully worked from the factory ready to race and would only cost around $3500.00 U.S including pipe, mount, and carb.They are just as fast, and are much cleaner looking on the kart so it wouldnt effect the racing any. In my opinion this would be a good place to start, and I would like to hear what others might think about it.
Best Regards,
Steve Rickman

[Tim Pappas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Steve Rickman:
I have looked at the whole scenario of running a PROMOTO Program however it is completely unrealistic Now I am not saying that we should pattern Pro Moto after the Constructors. To me the reason is quite simply the cost of the engines, these moto engines are totally out of control, the money and time that is put into these things is ridiculous, especially when you have to turn around and try and sell them to your customers who cannot all afford these top of the line engines.
Best Regards,
Steve Rickman

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I hope that the Promoto tour is not patterned after the Constructors Cup, we all know how that turned out. As for the costs of the engines, while it has gotten expensive it is still less than the 4 FA engines that it took to run a weekend at the CC. ICC may be an alternative, but I can guarentee you that it would be just as expensive at the national level. If a team has a budget of $xx they will still find a place to spend it, just in different places. The bottom line is that ANY true national series will be expensive. The key is to have reasonably priced local and regional series avaialable for the sport in general to grow.

[Steve Rickman]

Your probably not far off in assuming that it would be the same money to run Nationally, but I think If a system like the ICC was introduced it would make it more viable for Pro Teams to operate. In order to run a PRO Team you need money, the best way to make money is to have customers and have lots of them. By restricting karting to such an elite crowd by having $6-8000+ engines is not a good way to increase the karting base or to keep them interested. By running a series like an ICC series you then bring the average karter a lot closer to the "PRO" karter. As a result we have competetive racing, the sport grows and everyone can benefit. On the Pro level the competition then becomes extremly intense as it is no longer a battle of engine tuners but also of manufacturers which will create even more interest. After that happens the average karters are attracted to watching the PRO's do it and this builds a fan base which is attractive to potential sponsors for drivers, teams, and the sport.

[Marc Miller]

Steve -

One point I wanted to make on your last point:

"the ICC was introduced it would make it more viable for Pro Teams to operate. In order to run a PRO Team you need money, the best way to make money is to have customers and have lots of them."

This statement should be - "In order to run a PRO team you need money... the best way to make money is to find SPONSORS."

I hope that someday people will realize that my wife's Ford Focus does not have a Cosworth or Ford Champ Car motor in it. Ford does not sponsor Andretti, motorala does, Brack is sponsored by Shell, not Ford... Ford spends money on development... and helps the race teams technically... at the PRO level, the teams are still responsible to sell a marketing package to race.

My point is, a PRO team won't put 15 customers next to their "shop driver" at a "pro race" to cover the cost of that shop driver competing. That is old school. A PRO team will market themselves professionally, find outside funding, put together a seperate race program... set a budget for their own engine development program and compete for the development of their team and sponsors. There are very few teams out there that do it this way unfortunately and there is limited funding to make it happen (that is why arrive and drives are so popular). But to change the format of a racing program JUST so the shop can sell more engines is what has been hurting karting for years.

My .02

Marc Miller

[Tim Pappas]

You are absolutely right Marc. However, we need an organization to put together a viable, marketable race series in order to effectively market our teams. After years of rhetoric from the existing orgs, we are still waiting. The company line of "when you guys (the teams) are professional enough, we will market our series" is getting stale.

[Marc Miller]

Can't agree with you more Tim.... jeez.. did I just say that???? *grin*

MM

[John Grinager]

I had made a verbose comment about supercross and what it did for dirt biking on the previous thread regarding this subject. Regarding some of the ideas presented, here are my thoughts:

Don't run an exhibition race at a supercross race, run a "pay-per-lap" track that times the laps, kind of a Malibu Grand Prix (for those of you who have those in your area), only faster, with REAL karts. My racing partner and I always thought karts looked cool, but until we ponied up a couple hundred for a one day kart school, we never realized how fun they really are. That's what hooked us and opened our wallets, that little "tickle" of experience. I guarantee that people would bite, and if you touted the relative safety of karting, you would attract the interest of many motocrossers (every racing friend I know of is looking for a safer alternative to motocross, as we get older).

Regarding the distance of dirt bike riding areas relative to kart tracks, I don't think it's that different, at least in my area (Norcal). Racing motocross, the closest track was an hour away, and we've spent MANY years driving up and down California to race. Actually, there are more kart tracks to choose from than motocross tracks in our area, all 2 hours or less. Plus, we've gathered more hilarious road-trip stories than actual racing stories over the years!

My .02...

[Tim Pappas]

Someone sent me an email asking if I thought spec ignitions and a cc rule would help curtail costs. I have posted my reply below. As much as it pains me to say this, Marc has it right. We need to keep costs from spiralling out of controll, but the key to a successful national series is marketing, not excessive cost controls.

"A spec ignition and cc rule might temporarily level the playing field, but I don't think that it would reduce costs at the national level. We have a budget for engine development and we would continue to spend it. The gains may be smaller, but we would still continue as would other teams. After a period of time the level playing field would become an incline and I suspect that most of the people that are on top today, would continue to do so. FC or ICC as a cost alternative is not the answer either in my opinion. They have some of the same problems. There are special factory engines that only certain people get, which sell for way more than the much thrown around $3500 for an engine. Again, even if the gains were smaller, the engine builders here would go to work, and at least at the national level the engine costs would most likely be the same.

I think that a spec ignition and cc format has some merit at the local and regional level. This is where we need the growth. These levels need to be healthy in order to feed the national series. That was one of the downfalls of the CC.

Ultimately, one of the organizations needs to put together a national program that incorporate some form of exposure. This would allow the teams to market themselves and go after money other than "karting business" money. That is the only way a true national series will survive long term. The thing is that the format for a marketable series is probably not one that most karters may be comfortable with. 3 heats and a main would not be entertaining enough for me if I was not involved in the business. Someone needs to come up with a format that is truly sensational and combine it with the X-games, Freestyle MX, IRL, Champ Car....... Then watch it grow. When Supercross started 20 some years ago, the hardcore motocrosser's said that it would be the death of true motocross. Supercross IS motocross for most people now. Karting at a national level needs something along those lines. It may be different than what we are used to, but it needs to knock the socks off of the public. We are close, but not there yet."

[Jake Thompson]

I have always been a supporter of the Formula C/ICC deal jsut because there nicer on a kart, easier to work with, faster, etc. However Tims comment about how there are special factory engines that only some people can get is very true. One thing that definitely should make FC/ICC attractive to racers, and to SKUSA, is that it would give SKUSA another chance. Now that they have seen what happens when motor builders are given a certain budget, SKUSA would have the opportunity to change the rules (spec ignition, pipe etc) to try to make the playing field cheaper and more level to the privateer, before everyone spent a fortune developing the FC motors. My other point/question is "what about in Europe". What better place for us to know if FC motors are a good choice than to look at Europe. Have they been succesful there (Mary-Ann we need your knowledge again ). If they work over there, why would things be different here?
Jake Thompson www.jtracing.cjb.net

[Marc Miller]

Jake-

This is a common reference I have heard since getting into karting years ago.

"What better place for us to know if FC motors are a good choice than to look at Europe. Have they been succesful there (Mary-Ann we need your knowledge again ). If they work over there, why would things be different here? "

Please look at the size of Europe, the location of the manufacturers in relations to the racers, the culture that is vastly different. The fact that we, in America, have over 400 classes (IN TEXAS ALONE!!) from dirt oval, pavement oval, road race, street race, sprint, 4 cycle, 2 cycle, shifter, figure 8, etc etc yadda yadda yadda...

What works over there doesn't work here... it may work in your small region... say in Michigan (where I live) if we had a very strong region of ICC racers...it would work great..if everyone was happy to stick to the region... much like england is almost forced to do geographically.

The facts are.. this is North America.. and eventually, we may not RELY on Europe to make karting accessible here.

Besides... baseball is pretty cheap to play... and "America's Past-Time"...but you don't really see it being so popular in Switzerland do you?

Marc Miller

[Jake Thompson]

I understand where you are coming from Marc, but i can't totally agree. I just think that Europe is doing something right that were not. First off the fact that there are 400 classes in Texas alone is part of the problem, but that is once again a whole other story. However, here in North America we are struggling to have one really good national series. Somehow, in Europe they have a continental series, that has drivers from many many different countries all agreeing to come together and race in one series, They all speak different languages, and come from different cultures yet they have a much better series. You can't tell me that there isnt something to be learned from those guys. Obviously things are different, and we treat karting differently, but it is much more succesful and popular over there, i just think we could learn something from them. I was reading a magazine the other day where they had 240 karts in the Euro Championships in ICA. I guess i dont have near the knowledge to say that FC/ICC is the answer, I just know that a national series can be done better then it is right now. I agree with you more than my post has suggested though. I guess the biggest difference between us and Europe is the factories. This ties back into your earlier comment about the need for sponsors. In Europe they have a form of Sponsor that is very rare here in North America. They have the factories. All we have here is dealers, thus we have the difficult need to find outside sponsorship. It is for this reason that the straight up European way wont work in N.A. It seems to work fairly well here in Canada, all though, we have such a small contingent of karters here, it is easy for things to work. So here i sit full of conflicting thoughts, about what is wrong and how to fix it. I guess if bored 15 yr old kids like me could figure out the answer we wouldnt have a problem.
Jake Thompson www.jtracing.cjb.net

PS. As a Canadian don't get me started on way baseball isnt popular in Switzerland (or Canada) you guys should try something a bit more fast paced... ice hockey maybe

[Chad Stapleton]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Stevens:
[QB]

For most of us, US$10k/year is beer money.

Jeeze Dave, either you have expensive taste's in beer, or you have one heck of a thirst !!
That kind of money would keep me karting happy for 5 years minimum ! But i am only in it for the fun, not the "glory" of top competition.
This one comment alone highlights the huge difference's in attitudes and approach that we all have to this sport*/hobby*/addiction*
(*= delete as neccessary !)
Each to his own .. (mines a Bud !)

[Tim Blaney]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jake Thompson:
[QB]Now that they have seen what happens when motor builders are given a certain budget, SKUSA would have the opportunity to change the rules (spec ignition, pipe etc) to try to make the playing field cheaper and more level to the privateer, before everyone spent a fortune developing the FC motors. [QB]

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I am confused as to how making a spec ignition and pipe is going to keep the motor development in check. As Tim Pappas stated before, they have a budget of $X to run the PMT. If you limit their spending in one area, they will simply spend more in another area.

We often here the argument that the FC/ICC motors are just as fast stock as a built moto motor. That may be fine and dandy, but what happens when you start to develop the FC/ICC motors? Racers being racers, they are looking for the extra advantage need to win. The development will go on, it's part of the game.

If you look at the car series with tight controls to "keep the playing field level" and you generally see the same trends in more open series. They same group of teams running at the front and the same group running at the back.

In the IRL, the best-funded teams are Panther, Kelley, Menard and to a lesser extent Cheever. Guess who runs up front week-in, week-out? Sure there are some times when cars not from these teams do well but on the balance, the teams with the money are winning.

In NASCAR, you see a similar thing. The teams with bigger budgets to test, engineer and wind tunnel (develop) their highly regulated packages run up front. The rest are field-fillers.

I'd also like to see what the biggest budget item for a competitive PMT team. Tim Pappas has been in this thread and I know Greg Bell is a forum participant. Would you guys let us know what your biggest budget line item is? I would be willing to guess the motor program isn't it.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Tim Blaney ]

[Tim Pappas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tim Blaney:


I'd also like to see what the biggest budget item for a competitive PMT team. Tim Pappas has been in this thread and I know Greg Bell is a forum participant. Would you guys let us know what your biggest budget line item is? I would be willing to guess the motor program isn't it.

[ August 03, 2001: Message edited by: Tim Blaney ]

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The 3 T's. Tires, time, and travel.

TP

[Darren Swisher]

What about the input financially from major sponsor such as Honda, Kawasaki, ect. Where are they at.

Darren