Repost: CART and kart together?

[Rob Hogenmiller]

quote:

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Originally posted by Jeff Franz:

1) NAKA will conduct what they are calling a National Karting Championship, which will be a program of regional races leading up to a championship finale held at LVKC in thirteen months' time.

2) NAKA will sanction 6-8 races to be held during Champ Car event weekends in 2002. The exact format, classes, and specifications of said races will be determined in the very near future.

Jeff

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This is extremely upsetting to me. I thought NAKA was about promoting Karting, not thinning it out. I'm in favor of running the CART thing, but starting their own Regional Series to produce a National Championship in my mind is not helping Promote Karting.

I believe it only hurts karting, because the fields now are small how it is and adding another organization will only thin out the fields and we won't be able to share knowledge as easy and interact with one another.

I believe they have set an un realistic goal. I believe thoughs that have MUCH more knowledge than me about the history of karting organizations trying to do similar things will agree.

A realistic goal would have been to stick with the CART/Kart program and build off that towards their long term goal, but to try to do it all at once seems like a mistake to me.

Part of me hopes they make it work and part of me hopes they fail because I'm tired of the bickering and the amount of choices.

To me they have taken the easy road to trying to reach their goal.

Easy Road-Starting A New Organization
Road Less Traveled-Working With An Existing Organization

I know I know easier said then done. I see A LOT of willingness right now to work together. If it's about money, I think that the stronger business are ones that are working together, keep good relations and communications with their competitors. Ones that help each other grow their business. Very few companies can survive anymore with the philosphy of "Survival Of The Fittest".

Shoot now I don't even know why I typed this, it won't make a differenc and NAKA won't change their plans. How frustating.

[Scott Kalish]

Guys

I just don't get it. It seems everybody agrees the biggest problems in karting are:

1. To many organizations
2. To many classes

But everything that is being done is just the opposite.

Cart says it wants a series to showcase talent. Does that mean they have never heard of Scott Speed or Jason LaPoint? Come on!

In my opinion karting needs to fixed at the local level before we expand any more. Trying to please everybody usually ends up hurting the masses.

If we can condense the classes and have univeral rules karting on it own will become strong. Great drivers will emerge and be noticed.

The solutions are simple, the choices are tough.

SK

[Roger Miller]

I hate to seem dense, but, is it just so obvious to everyone else that no one is saying it:

The CART races are long track and the other NAKA series will have to be short track for it to end at the LVKC. So what is common about them that leads to one National Champion?

Or am I missing something?

[John Denman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Tim Pappas:



So what you're saying is that the NCAA, SCCA, NBA, NHL, NFL, F1, etc, etc, are not true national or world champs because you have to be a member of their group to participate. If that is the case, then there are very few true national or world champs in any sport.

tp

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Not what I said, but it could have been implied. Among the series referred to above, none of them are fragmented like US Karting. I noticed you left out Indy cars so lets examine that situation and how it applies.

Back when there was one series (take your pick, USAC, CART) it was the National Championship. Today we have two, CART and IRL. One has the INDY 500, clearly the crown jewel of American racing. The other has the talent and diversity, and IMO provides a more accurate platform to declare a national INDYCAR champion. Sure CART doesn't refer to them as Indycars no more than shifters are referred to as go-carts.

There are two simple tests:
Who is first to establish a credible championship?

Who has been accepted as that credible agent?

Look at the history of karting and compare the US and Europe-

Karting began in the US, and is very strong yet very fragmented. As a result the majority of our karts are powered by potato diggers, Japanese built 2-strokes and motorcycle motors. A hand full of West Bends and even smaller handful of the fine European kart specific motors. We have the numbers to support several US manufacturers of purpose built kart motors, but the sport is so fragmented no one will venture into it with a new motor.

In Europe they have so many motors specifically built for karting, I have lost track. The have many more chassis manufacturers. They have spectator events with televised coverage. They have sponsorship. Why? The sport is not fragmented.

In the US we have what, one CART driver who is providing substantial financial backing to a Karting Team?

How about European or Brazilian teams enjoy this scholarship? That may answer why there are so few Americans in CART today.

CART is a publicly traded business with the typical 90 day vision. I very much enjoy CART, but I also recognize the new Stars series may only last a year under this banner. Hopefully much longer.

My point was quite simple, that to become a single national championship entity it cannot displace an existing national championship entity by just self declaring it as such. Maybe given time it will grow to that, but certainly not in the first year or even three.

I do support the concept, but wish it was executed without the "not invented here" syndrome.

Sure I would like to see this series succeed and earn the right to become the true National Championship. But thats an earned virtue, no less than a ride in a CART car is an earned virtue.

Until the dues are paid, I still see the Road America Supernationals and the USSN as the true National Championship events for Shifterkarts.

I will say that if the CIK were extended to the US as a sanctioning body of the Stars, that would seriously accelerate the rate of dues payment.

[Charlie Tackett]

Those were my thoughts exactly, Mr. Miller! From a long track racers perspective, I would welcome thsi series as it is the most recognition you would likely ever get running on long tracks.

[Tim Pappas]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bonnier Moulton:


For sprint shifter racing in the U.S., there is no single event of higher stature, with anywhere close to as deep and large of fields as the SKUSA Supernationals. If any single event can lay claim to crowning a national champion in sprint shifters it's the Supernats.
End 2c.
Bonnier
Msquared Karting www.msquaredkarting.com

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Bonnier Moulton ]

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yep

tp

[Paul Harraka]

I seem to remember the SAME announcement being made at the beginning of the 2000 season. It was between WKA and Cart and the slogan was " KART TO CART ". They even had posters plastered all over the Jacksonville WKA World Championship race. THE SERIES NEVER HAPPENED. I hope this one works and NAKA learned from WKA's mistakes. They need to make it easy for all to paticipate, which means using both WKA and IKF rules, whichever is more lienient. They also need to include EVERYBODY by having Jr. Spts.(rookie), Junior and senior classes. And the most important thing is, WE MUST ALL SUPPORT IT.
John Denman, I find it interesting that you were against my feeling that you needed WKA and IKF involvement in a true National Championship race, but now you state, "IF THEY INTEND TO DISPLACE THOSE WHO HOLD SUCH CHAMPIONSHIPS WITHOUT A JOINT EFFORT AND/OR COOPERATION IT'S JUST ANOTHER WANNABE". Contradictory, no?

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Harraka ]

[Rob Hogenmiller]

I thought I'd make a comment to the post that said, Tell me CART doesn't know who Scott Speed is and Jason Lapoint is.

My comment is I think you'd be surprised at how many don't know. Until your in Toyota Atlantic, Indy Lights, or have directly contactted them. I suggest there is a high chance they don't know who you are. (Lapoint has done some Atlantic Now)

I'm pretty sure Memo Gidley said something to this nature once too. That he was shocked to find out how little attention they paid to the support series.

The only reason they should is to find good talent, but at the level they are at it takes more than talent it takes business sense too and the ladder series that is availalbe now does an EXCELLENT job of weeding out those that don't have that experience.

[John Denman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Paul Harraka:
John Denman, I find it interesting that you were against my feeling that you needed WKA and IKF involvement in a true National Championship race, but now you state, "IF THEY INTEND TO DISPLACE THOSE WHO HOLD SUCH CHAMPIONSHIPS WITHOUT A JOINT EFFORT AND/OR COOPERATION IT'S JUST ANOTHER WANNABE". Contradictory, no?

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Paul Harraka ]

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Those who hold these National Championships that I referred to are not affiliated with any single club like IKF, WKA, KART or SKUSA. They are organized as neutral events where you don't have to be a card carrying member of any one series. They are also timed to avoid half the field from missing a few days of school, and pretty much central.

Is that contradictory? I hope not.

I was not against your feeling that a National held jointly either. It is just not likely to happen if a joint effort was a requirement.

I don't claim to know how to solve the fragmentation problem we have in US karting. But I will say the fragmentation is exactly why karting in the US is so far behind Europe, and will continue to fall behind until we defrag the system.

[Bill Kassy]

Going back to what Rob said: "I thought I'd make a comment to the post that said, Tell me CART doesn't know who Scott Speed is and Jason Lapoint is."

I concur 100%. I know it is difficult to envision, but shifter karts in the US is not the next step to CART or Champ Car.

To go from shifter karts to CART; there are a minimum of two very important racing classes to go to Barber Dodge Pro or equivalent and then Atlantics). No if, ands or buts about it. Then the real hard part comes => sponsorship. Yeah, your talent will get you looked at and maybe be able to put a face to a name, but the bottom line is $$$, marketability, and contacts. To get a break in Champ Car you need to bring $$$ to the plate. The more you can bring the better team you may land with. Once you have proven yourself, then and only then, can you negotiate a better deal, but you better have some sponsors to bring with you.

My 2 cents.

[Preston Peebles]

Am I reading this right? Or does everyone not think the CART-NAKA is a good deal?

There isn't going to be one 'true national champion'. There are National Championships that hold more respect than others, and right now, the SKUSA Super Pro World Championship is the most prestigious title in most peoples opinion because of the amount of talent in the field. (Correct me if Im wrong) Now any ONE RACE, would be no other than the Super Nationals. The race/series with the deepest field and most talent will earn the most respect from everyone.

The Stars program is to present karters who are working towards a professional racing career right infront of car teams. Car teams aren't going to make an effort to find you as a kart racer, your going to make an effort to contact and impress them, and the Stars program will make it just that much easier.

I think the top notch drivers that are pursuing a racing career would agree. But I can only speak for myself...

[Jeff Franz]

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Kassy:
...but shifter karts in the US is not the next step to CART or Champ Car. To go from shifter karts to CART; there are a minimum of two very important racing classes to go to Barber Dodge Pro or equivalent and then Atlantics).

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Clearly, CART feels the same way, given that they already sanction both Barber Dodge and Toyota Atlantics.

But to the point of whether CART knows about drivers such as LaPoint and Speed, I would offer that they certainly know who Jason is, and at least three Champ Car teams have brought up Scott's name to me in casual conversation, his 2001 achievements having drawn some attention.

My impression is that the pro teams are taking an increased look at karting's standouts, but the owners are somewhat turned off by the number of drivers who can lay claim to a national championship. Mr. Rahal gave one such perspective when he stated...

"As a team owner, you want to have some way of spotting who the top drivers are. In Europe, the structure is such that it's easy to recognize which karters are excelling, but in the United States that isn't true. There are just too many classes to wade through."

Nothing really new there, of course. On a side note, I was greatly encouraged to see almost two dozen karters at Laguna Seca this past weekend, all of them recognizing the importance of proper presentation and face time.

Jeff

[Oscar Aguilera]

I think CART needs us as much as we(karters) need them. In all fields of professional sports the ladder is a visual one and very much viewed at all levels. You don't get a high school B. Ball player straight to the pros without a pro team scout watching a High school game.
The series that will win out as the defying series will be the one that gets the best exposure whether or not that includes Televising the entire event. Our current costs will dictate that exudous.

There is only one high school football game that is aired on TV and that is usually the state championship, at least here in Texas. But the Friday and Saturday news coverage takes as much air time as the Sunday night pro coverage. If we could get just one event every year on TV and then have all year news coverage that would be awesome, and more effective than airing the whole series at this point. The news will touch more people that are a captive audience.

I think a good kart racer can jump into an Atlantic and do well without the slower car experience that is generally required right now. It will be that special someone and there won't be but a few in my lifetime, that gets the nod with the exposure that may come with ties to CART.

CART needs us because American companies will start to ask more vigurously "where are our boys?" CART sponsors will not sponsor drivers that are not the "american boy" image types to represent their products. At least not all the time. The good ol american boy image sells.

Why do you think NASCAR is so successful?

Answer: The coverage got better by being more personal towards the drivers, there lifestyles, and families. The masses of average viewers relate that a driver came from their neck of the woods. "HE" becomes their favorite driver.

As we are drivers at heart we can pick out the guys that impress us the most with their skill. Take the average person who might watch a race and they have nothing in common with the driver except for the make of the car, and the way the media portrays the drivers back ground and how it relates to the average viewer. It is the average viewer that brings the sponsors the appeal they look for in sponsoring an event. (YOU can thank D. Waltrip) with Tide, home improvement co's, and non-race industry related products involved in racing this brings more $$.

Now we need the current sanctioning bodies to decide to do the right thing for karting whatever that may take, and ONE sanctioning body needs to take the riegns and I really don't care which one it is.

The drivers are better educated, the equipment is much better than years past, CART needs us, and the $$$ are out there. We just need to get our "STUFF" together.

Jason LaPoint, Joey Hand, and others will be first to help our cause. Gidely is there now and people that are in CART and into Karting are the most important. These drivers will IMO do us the justice we deserve because these guys came from "Modern karting" with better tires, chassis, motors, data aquistion, and shifters. Memo G. so far has done what Hollis talks about to get to a Champ car by 4 years out of karting. It was Super nats "96 that Memo G. and Alex B. left karts and they were both right on track. I thank these guys for getting "us karters" the chance. Like Bonnier says, we'll see what that chance is.

Just My opinion.

[Stephen Buckley]

Wow! John, great post! I was thinking the exact same thing. How about this? CART should have started their series based on CIK (Formula C or ICC), OR, a better option, to align themselves with J.R. and the World Superkarts. The CART race fans would be able to identify with the F/E or IC/E karts.

To the average race fan, an Indycar is an Indycar, whether it races in the IRL or CART, just as they know what a Formula 1 car is.

I think we all know why US karting is not a regular feature on TV AND not taken seriously. We can all pretend that we race bigtime neato stuff no matter how we package it, however, in reality, to the average household, it's still a cute little go-cart. You have ALL seen the expressions on people's faces when you tell them what you race. It doesn't matter whether you are Scott Speed or Ricky Racer.

Look at all the rest of recreational sports. Boat racing. Downhill skiing. Snowmobiles. They all have ONE sanctioning body. So when a TV production company wants to film a segment, they go to that one organisation WITHOUT the fear of offending some other like organisation!

If you noticed, on Speedvision the other night, they filmed the SCCA Formula 500 runoffs. Those puppies are pretty cool. I wish they were popular in my area. I'd jump out of karts into that venue in a minute. My point is that they basically run in one sanctioning organisation.

Anyway, CART, if you're out there... you made a mistake. Correct it now before you do more harm than good. Do yourselves a big favour and grab the 250cc guys.

[Bonnier Moulton]

quote:

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Originally posted by John Denman:
Until the dues are paid, I still see the Road America Supernationals and the USSN as the true National Championship events for Shifterkarts.

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A bit OT but I've bitten my tongue long enough. Are you telling me that the USSN has paid these "dues" after one single event?!? Which was held in conjunction with a Stars of Tomorrow event?!? Give me a break.

For sprint shifter racing in the U.S., there is no single event of higher stature, with anywhere close to as deep and large of fields as the SKUSA Supernationals. If any single event can lay claim to crowning a national champion in sprint shifters it's the Supernats.

As for all the arm-flapping and yowling about the NAKA/Stars deal, perhaps we should wait for some actual facts before reaching a verdict and pronouncing sentence. Maybe, just maybe, there will be something unique that will separate it from the others. I suspect there will be.

End 2c.
Bonnier
Msquared Karting www.msquaredkarting.com

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Bonnier Moulton ]