ICE 250 engine choices

Jon Anderson · Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 12:02 pm Post subject: ICE 250 engine choices

I've been fascinated with the 250s since I saw my first WKA National at Kershaw a few years ago. The coverage in SKI and the car/bike media have continued to intensify the attraction. I've run 125s and TaG (in addition to Race Directing and contributing to SKI) and am now considering what it would take to get started right in a 250 ICE for $ and equipment. My plan is to take my time and use good research to help make my project successful, so thanks for your help.

Chapter 1 - ICE Engine choices

The Rotax 257, CR250 and CRF450 seem to be the most popular choices, are there any other viable options for a newcomer that does not plan to do the engine development themselves?

What are the pros and cons of these 3? For each choice, what are the significant differences between models/years and what's preferred? Are they all about equivalent performance, if not power delivery? What are the real hp and torque numbers, and at what RPM?

What sort of $ will I be in for and who are the experts for each?

The CRF450 originally appealed to me when I saw one run at Road Atlanta (Gary Peterson I think?) a couple Thanksgiving's ago. Words like "stock" and "bulletproof" have a certain appeal to them. Now I'm hearing that it's not so easy - what's the straight story?

The 257 jug cracking seems to be taken care of w/ the torque girdle solutions - any other issues?

Thanks again for your time and help, as I get the engine info sorted out I'll start gathering up my questions about my chassis choices.

Have a happy Thanksgiving, Jon

Johnny West · Joined: 03 May 2002 Posts: 1181

Jon,

Any of the engines can be competitive. Being new to 250 racing. I suggest you buy a set up thru the guys/shop where you plan on racing. work with who ever will be at the track. This way they will be there to assist. An I can assure you, that you will need some help. These ICE/FE's can be a hand full. And a bit confusing at times.

If you are going to consider running the NASKS.Here in the Mid-west/east coast. There will be alot of guys that will point you in the right direction.

Cost A complete package New 17,000 + depending on spares and you still need to sort it out.

Good used stuff 10,000 w/ spares still some sorting will be needed.

The look on your face one you run it... Priceless!!! Very Happy

_________________
Johnny West/West Racing

Randy Domikis · Joined: 22 Jul 2002 Posts: 266

Jon,

Russell Anderson (of Anderson Karts) has a great Honda CR 250 package. Won the WKA and WSK Championships in 2004 and has done really well in the european series abroad. I would suggest buying a complete package (motor,pipe,carb,ign,mount,etc, etc). Having a sorted package will make you a whole lot happier in the long run and give you lots of track time to sort yourself out.

And as Johnny said, both the singles and twins can be a hand full.

Just my opinion and experience.

Randy Domikis

Gary Kozuma · Posted: Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject:

I don't personally have any experience with these animals but I have observed a few things. The one thing that's for sure, those Rotaxs fail all the time, and it's easy to see why. Just look down the jug a pretend your a piston going up and down at 10,000+ RPM.

I've toyed with the idea several times. If it were me I'd do a stock CRF450 or a modified CR250.

Marc Miller · Advertiser Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1834

I'll put my vote in for the CR250.... Paul Leary did ours - and is a potent package. It is more reliable than the Rotax by far - and pound for pound - it is more potent than the crf450.

Like Johnny said - a good sorted complete package can be found for about $10K. We will have our SKI project kart for sale upon completion early next season.. already sorted with test laps and performance charts.

Good luck with your search.
_________________
"Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Director of Brand Development (MRP/Birel) www.BirelAmerica.com /
Advanced Instructor - MRP Speed Schools - www.mrpmotorsport.com
Professional Driver/Driver Coach - http://www.themarcmillershow.com

Mike Caballes · Posted: Sun Nov 28, 2004 8:23 pm Post subject:

Marc,

Can you give me some idea on cost for a new verses used CR250? Where do you find an already built/tested CR250?

I plan on running ICE for 05 and I still undecided on the motor package.

Thanks,
Mike

Clark Gaynor · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 4:29 am Post subject:

Jon and Mike. We just finished up our first year with a 250 (Anderson/ Anderson CR250). Bought it used, one year old, from Andy Kiker, ready to run. I strongly agree with what's been said above. Buy a package ready to run, whether new or used. It will save you a bunch of time, and maybe even money.
We've road raced 125's for the past 5 years (in fact I stillrun one), so making the change wasn't a big deal. Just everything is a little bigger, and a few dollars more. If you can take care of a 125, you won't have a problem with a 250.
In the years to come, the 450's might be the way to go, once they get all the rules set. For now, I'd go with the CR. Cheap, available parts, easy to work on, and just about everybody knows something about them.
If you're looking for just a motor, go NEW. With a used motor, you can figure on a new crank/ rod/ piston assy. The gear box should be gone over, etc, etc. By the time you're done, you really won't save that much.
Just my opinion.
The other thing is- the Superkart/250/450/ICE/FE/Unlimited folks are great. Everybodyhelps everybody.
AND, they ARE a hoot to driver.
Clark (The Old One).

Mike Caballes · Posted: Mon Nov 29, 2004 9:22 pm Post subject:

Clark,

Thanks for the info, I am leaning towards the CR250 due to the easy access and availability of parts and motor builder experience within my region. Nothing against Rotax, I know a few people who are having good luck with their motors but I am partial to Honda because of my past experience.

As far as the 450's, I think I will wait for all the bugs to be worked out and I simply know very little about 4 strokes and squeezing power out of them. I hope the 3 years of experience I gained from 125 ICC will help me in the 250 class.

There seems to be very little available in the used market so it looks like a new motor and off to the motor builder. I wouldn't shy away from a used CR as long as I could verify the history.

BTW, I plan on an Anderson Maverick, will the CR fit. I believe the Maverick is designed for ICE application. I am green to Super Kart so I'd like to make sure the Maverick and CR250 match up. Any comments?

Thanks,
Mike

John Rounds · Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 76

Do not expect any support for the Anderson Maverick - I have not received any. I was expecting Kelgate brakes but Anderson makes an inferior copy in my opinion. John Rounds ICE # 47

Andy Kiker · Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 5:19 am Post subject:

FIROUZ HAGHIGHI · Joined: 31 Jan 2002 Posts: 402

hello jon

call me if you can. i will give you some idea's about ice class

regards

firouz
team texas

817 233 6344

Mitchell Dixon · Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Posts: 330

I would say the cr250 would be a greta motor to run. i do not run this in my kart because I race Easykart125, but i have a cr250r dirtbike and i ride it fast. the motor pulls strong through every gear (i can even wheelie in 5th with a slight crack of the throttle) and has stayed powerful for over a year w/o a rebuild. i have also ridden a crf450 and that enegine is great to, but for the high rpm racing i would suggest the 250. the crf450 worked good in the lower rpm range, but once it got through half the gear it started to fall off its "peak". Both are great motors, but i feel the 250 will be easier to tune, especially fuel and timing wise. also, i am not sure, but with the crf450 engine, do you have to use the clutch in every gear like u do on the dirtbike or is it a sequential like the cr250?

(if only i had the moeny to race these karts...you guys are so lucky! i look forward to reading all of the upcomnig topics in this forum)

-Good Luck!
Mitch
_________________
"I am not afraid, I was born to do this."

-Joan of Arc

Randy Domikis · Joined: 22 Jul 2002 Posts: 266

Jon,

Send me an email. I may be selling all of my Anderson ICE CR250 stuff over the winter and going to a twin.

Randy Domikis
RDomikis@aol.com

John Ferreira · Posted: Tue Nov 30, 2004 10:21 pm Post subject:

Honda - Yes ...
But I would go with a TRX -

John

Marc Miller · Advertiser Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1834

^^^ I wouldn't.. the gearbox from 5th to 6th makes 6th gear useless. You are better off with the CR and using the 5-speed.... the CR250 can be made to have a pretty broad powerband - with more torque than the Rotax 257.
_________________
"Luck is when Preparation meets Opportunity"
Director of Brand Development (MRP/Birel) www.BirelAmerica.com /
Advanced Instructor - MRP Speed Schools - www.mrpmotorsport.com
Professional Driver/Driver Coach - http://www.themarcmillershow.com