U.S. Superkart Championship for 2005

[Bill Kassy]

[Charlie Tackett]

John.....one correction.....or comment.....not all the 450 guys forgot why they bought them. The primary reason we bought one initially was econmy and reliability of a stock motor. The rules for the class were to be basically a stock 450 with minor mods which would allow it to be adapted to a kart.

We showed up at Laguna two years ago with a stock Cannondale, intending to be in the IC-4 class. I had assumed, as we were lead to believe, that we would run with everyone else, but be scored separately. To the contrary, we were just thrown in with the ICE karts. A stock 43-44hp 4/ vrs 60+ hp 2/. Want to guess how competitive we were?

I would be glad to run a stock 450, it would have saved me one heck of a lot of time and money and we probably could have run more races. But if you expect people to run a stock motor, be it a 2/ or a 4/, you cannot expect them to do so when you throw them in with and score them along with what are bascially open motors.

[Chris Reinhardt]

Lots of good feedback guys, I agree with most of it, Charlie, Bill, Randy..
If the ICC motors had been faster than the moto motors, that class would have grown more. It's about progress, which=faster, like Bill said, that's racing. That's the same argument about laydowns, if they were the fastest way around the track, then that class would grow, but right now, at most of the tracks we go to, there not.
I remember why I built a 450, I wanted an engine that wouldn't shake my chassis so bad that it would break the bumper all to pieces along with putting cracks in the frame. I also like the smiles on pit road when I come off the track and whack the throttle!!!
I'll argue this till I'm blue in the face, running a four cycle, isn't any more expensive in the long run then running a 2 cycle. At $1200 a pop for an Anderson cylinder, it evens out real quick.

Chris R.

PS Charlie, I think if we had a "stock" 450 class, it would cost us more money, take a look at the stock Briggs class...

[Don Engebretsen]

Chris:

I find myself agreeing a lot with you lately. Why is that???

Your reasons and mine are the same for running the 4 strokes. And, the reason we want to modify them is because it is a part of racing. Sure you can have stock classes and probably get more seat time. Or, you can rent a ride. But, does everyone really want an IROC, cookie cutter, template, buy it and drive experience. Of course not. For those that do, there are plenty of karting classes. Unlimited is what this class is called. Why is that??? If you can run blowers on a Briggs or run 125's that need a piston every race and a crank every 10 hours I would suggest not entering the Unlimited class (albeit, with rules) and advocate a running it as a stock class.

If Charlie wants to run in a 4 stroke stock class that is scored separately, so be it. We all know that the 4 strokes will need mods to compete against stock, much less modified, 250 singles. Chris is absolutely correct to warn about the costs associated with crate or sealed motors.

There is no reason for a well built and integrated motocross 4 stroke to not be reliable in a heavily modified form. It may take time to sort out some items, but it is doable. I know that our local AMA team has run their highly modified SuperMoto Yamaha for 80+ hours without a teardown. When an end of the season teardown was done recently, the engine was in great shape and wear was negligible. Yes, I know the conditions are different. But, this is a big part of the future and will be good for karting. Period.

I personally enjoy the building, modifying, and creativity outlets that karting provides in addition to the driving and racing. When I check out the grid at a place like Elkhart, it is very apparent that vast majority of the karters present feel the same way. The amazing tweaks and variations on a theme are a sight to behold.

This is a 250/Unlimited/World Superkart forum. There are other selections for those interested in other options. I cannot imagine either of the JR's actively promoting "stock" only engine rules in this class.

Just my 2 cents.

Don Engebretsen

[Johnny West]

Only problem with running different type karts & engines and scoring them seperatly is numbers. With only 2 to 3 laydowns twins or singles, or 450 4 strokes. ect... we would have alot of classes with few entries. The debate still goes on about weight. Everyone wants to win. And everyone want the edge. As far as the comment on the J.R Clausen and J.R. Osbourn having differnt views. Osbourn is trying to get the MID-WEST/EAST guys on the same page to GET the numbers so WE can have a decent series. J.R. Clausen was putting together the WSK Challenge the covers the Globe. Here in America we a ??? Lets say a more robust Driver And YES John F. a 4 race series is not that bad when you consider the travling costs involved. This will still allow the karter to support his local club races as well. I ran 12 races last year. Reading thru all the posts it sounds like some guys want a "Spec" class. Per haps Rotax Max may be more to your liking I don't think it possible for a racer to "Just bolt it on and NOT try to get an edge.

Personally I think we let the laydowns 450 4 strokes girdels what ever. Rules should be simple Bore stroke Fuel, weight, no turbo or nitrous, Blower ect.... Run and have fun. Just my 2 cents
_________________
Johnny West/West Racing

[CHRIS TAYLOR]

Let all the karts run!

[Chris Reinhardt]

Johnny, I agree, bore stroke, lets go racing!!! I think the WKA has concerns about speeds and that's where the limitations come from at least from what I see here in the east.
Laydowns or no laydowns, depends on who's series we're talking about, I have no problem with running with them as I've said earlier, but untill a more recent post by Rob H., I thought we were talking about creating a new series with the ideas that JRO has brought to the table. So I guess we need to deside on what series we're talking about....

Chris R.

[Steve Tillman]

I'm with Chis Taylor, let all of the gearbox karts run, laydown or sit up, the series needs numbers anyway it can get them.

The WSK series only had 4 drivers who ran at all of the events and were eligible for the crown, this series needs people who are gong to come out and support it and not just post about it like they did with WSK series and then not come out and race or at least show up to help out a fellow driver for support, lets not make the same mistake with this one.

Steve Tillman

[Riley Will]

BRC concers with ya'all. Run what ya brung. Up to 500cc 4-stroke single for ICE, and upto 500cc twin cylinder for FE twin. This should make for some exciting engineering on the grids. OPen carburation/Fuel injection, race gasolines, open ignitions. We all use ignitions that allow us to make our engines live in a kart anyways, right?
_________________
Riley Will
BRC Engineering
rwill@brceng.com
(403) 216-0630 wk.
www.brceng.com

[Larry Dobbs]

The west coast clubs need our entries to be able to afford the track rentals. It would be a win-win for 250's and local clubs if they raced together. I know of two new competitors joining us for 2005 and one is coming from laydowns the other from 125's. In northern california we had 4 total 250 competitors per race weekend. Now we have seven because Dale Thompson is going to rejoin us along with the two mentioned above. If SCK has seven and there are seven in the Northwest, thats 21 250 drivers per race if we all attend all the races.

Our growth is coming from other roadrace classes. NCK will race at Infineon, Thunderhill, and Reno-Fernley in 2005. So far we have had zero growth from car enthusiasts attending Laguna Seca. NCK welcomes anyone who would like to race and can pass pretech.

[Charlie Tackett]

A lot is going to depnd on what popl expect out of this class. Run what you brung, totally open, no restrictions what so ever is fine. In fact sounds real tough, macho...let the biggest, baddest dog win.

However, historically, groups with unlimited options, virtually unregulated rules have never been growth or even long term sustaining membership groups. I'm not talking about just karting, either. Works the same for bikes and cars, too. Audi built a better mouse trap with their R8 ( and 10's of millions of dollars, too) and look the route the LMP class has gone in sportscar endurance racing. GrandAm came out with the much more regulated and restricted Daytona prototypes adn in about three years it looks like the are going from less than a half a dozen cars to possibly 30 or more for the next Daytona 24. Go back and look at motocross racing in the early 70's when the Asian concerns decided to get into teh action and built 160lb unobtainium factory bikes that darn near killed it off because no one else could compete. Where's the WKA ManCup unlimited class now????

Sure, this class isn't for everyone, it shouldn't be. But unrestricted regulations have almost always resulted in an inherent limitation of potential competitors over the long run. I've talked to a number of people who think the superkarts are cool and have thought about entering the class, except for one thing. THey have watched too many of the races already over the years when more than half the class DNF's or even cases , which I have seen any number myself, where the winner wasn't the first guy to take the checkered flag, but instead was the last one to breakdown!! They've seen too many guys come in on the flatbed with their super expensive tricked out engine missing tops of cylinders or chunks of cases, etc.

So to have a race, do you shorten it from 1hr to 45" adn now to 30" and to some 20"??? IS the quest for more power, more speed, to go faster more important than to actually have a race? 20min heats?? What's next, a 5 lap qualifying/race adn call it good?? Maybe we should hold hte races out on the salt flats and just see who can build the fastest kart. Or how about Johnny just brings his dyno to teh track and we have dyno runs for the trophies?

If you want totally open, unregulated engine rules, that's perfectly fine, but if that is what you want then I think some need to lower there expectaions of the growth potential of this group adn get used to running against 5-7 other karts most of the time except for those very few, infrequent events which will draw more than a dozen karts per class.

IMHO, two classes. FE open engine rules, no restrictions on anything....Formula Experimental.......250 GP twins, single cylinder engines of up to 500cc displacement whether its a 4/ or 2/, at a lighter weight. ICE, single cylinder with limited rules similar to ICC, as an example. Relatively easily techable rules.......stock igntition, limited head cc's, carb venturi diameter. THere should be a progression from ICE to FE in terms of cost, performance and ability.

[Reggie Brown, Jr]

Wow, I really hope this class does not go into a open rules format for the f/e class, otherwise we have spent 50 grand and we have an obsolete car. Thats pretty cool. If we want to drive people out, opening rules up is the way to do it.

Only 3-4 people in the country would have the funds to compete in a series/class like that. The more stuff changes the more it costs, and while i realize the sport/rules will evolve, this is insane. I want to see a class where it doesn't matter what track/series we go to, that there are 10+ f/e250 karts and 20+ f/e & ICE karts. I want guys to race against. I dont' want to have to wait for one race per year where 50 karts show up.

I'm all for running all kinds of 250 gearbox karts together, but lets keep it simple. ice, f/e, and a laydown class. Lets keep the rules we have and actually enforce them. Lets make one STRONG series with good races and that has rules similar to what is already out there. And by the way, hope everyone is having fun at RA, wish i was with you guys! Good luck

Reggie