Proposed EPA Off-highway vehicle emissions standards

Erik Frank

Speedvision posted a blurb about a proposal issued by the EPA regulating strict new emissions standards for off-highway vehicles (bikes and atv's). One can only imagine that this might also affect karts. Is this the nail in the proverbial coffin for two-strokes?

Here is the link:
http://www.speedvision.com/pub/articles/motorcycles/09inews/010920b.html

-erik

John Denman

I think by 2006 we will still be using "new" 1999 CR125 motors. And as cheap as FI has gotten, and as durable as catalytics have become, well its possible.

And there are enough existing used motors out there that with a good parts supply will last for many years.

Yes, eventually we may have to move to 4 strokes or even rotories. I just love the simplicity of 2 strokes.

Steve Fryer

Here is my take on this 2 cycle EPA mess. What are they going to do with chain saws and the logging industry? 4 cycles here are not an option due to the weight. Also, karts are racing vehicles. Are they going to subject Nascar and Cart racing vehicles to the same type of emissions standards? What about drag racing? Are you going to tell me that a Fuel dragster is cleaner than a 2 stroke motor? And why oh why must we all wear seat belts and have mufflers on our vehicles when motocycles are allowed to run open pipes and ride around without helmets? Is our government immune to class action lawsuits? I am fed up with the average consumer being discriminated against for not having a special interest group in their corner.

Todd Stoffer

My understanding is the new EPA "regulations" (laws) will not apply to motors intended for competition.

Question: the EPA is merely a regulatory agency charged with enforcing existing laws. It is an arm of the executive branch, not the legislative branch. How do they get away with creating the laws they also enforce? I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't this violate the separation of powers clause in the U.S. Constitution?

Tim Blaney · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 1127

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Stoffer:
My understanding is the new EPA "regulations" (laws) will not apply to motors intended for competition.

Question: the EPA is merely a regulatory agency charged with enforcing existing laws. It is an arm of the executive branch, not the legislative branch. How do they get away with creating the laws they also enforce? I'm not a lawyer, but doesn't this violate the separation of powers clause in the U.S. Constitution?

It doesn't violate seperation of powers.. Generally, the legislative branch passes a bill stating they want emissions reduced. The President signs the bill into law. At this point, an executive agency (EPA in this case) takes the law and crafts methods to enfore the law (banning 2 cycle engines). These rules are published and open for public comment and possible Congressional review. After a given amount of time, the rules go into effect.

Erik Frank

quote:
Originally posted by Todd Stoffer:
My understanding is the new EPA "regulations" (laws) will not apply to motors intended for competition.

If you race 80cc and 125cc shifters in the USA, you source your motors from production based recreational vehicles (aka dirt bikes) which are most certainly affected!

John August · Joined: 02 Aug 2001 Posts: 140 Location: El, Cajon, CA

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Frank:

If you race 80cc and 125cc shifters in the USA, you source your motors from production based recreational vehicles (aka dirt bikes) which are most certainly affected!

mmmmmmm......maybe another good reason to get an ICC Motor class started.

JA

Phil Clements

It might be good to hear from someone with some powerboating ties. I've heard that the new EPA regs are reaking havoc on their outboard classes. A real good question to ask might be.... Is a manufacturer going to keep their "Racing" 2-stroke engine production without a "Street-Legal" use for that equipment?

Personally I think the handwriting is on the wall.

Jeff Post · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 16 Location: Visalia Ca.

Well Phil,first of all 2 strokes are illegal on the street anyway,and yes,the big 5 will probably still make their 2 stroke "competition"machines,basically due to costs of manufacturing 4 strokes,which are more complex and with a whole lot more internal parts to make.The dirt bike world has been fighting this for years and will still fight it for years,nom the kart racers finally heard about it and guess what,they're panicking,we should just joun our dirt bike brothers and fight it.2 strokes aren't going any where!!!

Jay Eschrich · Joined: 06 Sep 2001 Posts: 26 Location: Milwaukee,WI

The Marine Ind has been shifting outboard production to four srtokes for some time with the exception of 150 hp on up.They have gone to forms of direct injection to clean them up and meet the 2006 EPA standards.This is costly and not a viable option on small hp motors. In addition one of the small engine manufacturers has already developed a weed wacker size four stroke that is now in production.You can see the trend to four strokes in Europe, it is more a matter of when than if here in the US.

Erik Frank

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Post:
Well Phil,first of all 2 strokes are illegal on the street anyway (snip)

Not true. Go down to your local Yamaha dealer and ask to test ride a Riva 50cc two stroke scooter. Aprillia also has several small bore two stroke bikes as well. I believe U.S. laws currently permit two-stroke powered vehicles up to 50cc on the street (basically scooters). Not sure if this holds true in California, however.

Now, I've got to go mow my yard...with my 2 stroke Lawn Boy (powered with B-32 and Redline!)

-erik

Curtis Bosarge · Joined: 18 Jul 2001 Posts: 28 Location: Des Allemands, La.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff Post:
The dirt bike world has been fighting this for years and will still fight it for years,nom the kart racers finally heard about it and guess what,they're panicking,we should just joun our dirt bike brothers and fight it.2 strokes aren't going any where!!!

The motorcycle manufacturers are currently building & selling competitive 4-strokes. Yamaha has been very successful with the YZ426F & more recently the YZ250F. Honda recently introduced its CRF450R 4-stroke. Husquavarna, Husaberg, KTM all have competitive 4 bangers racing in World GP moto-x, and for sale to the public. It may take a while, but IMO, the hand writing is on the wall. When the Big-4 start building 4-strokes, it's not for the novelty of it. They have also sold Enduro-based 4-strokes for years.

By the way, the YZ250F, which competes in 125cc Supercross and outdoor moto-x classes, turns ~13K RPM. These aren't your father's 4-strokes.

Curtis

Todd Stoffer

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Frank:

If you race 80cc and 125cc shifters in the USA, you source your motors from production based recreational vehicles (aka dirt bikes) which are most certainly affected!

The Honda CR series dirt bikes (same motor on my shifter except for the 6th gear) are designed for competitive use. I believe it's the XR series that are intended for recreation/trail riding purposes. That certainly doesn't mean you can't "play" with a CR. Most CR owners do nothing but.

I agree with Jeff Post. 2-strokes aren't going anywhere for the time being. This could change at any minute so we must be vigilant and do what we can to prevent Washington from dictating what motors we can and can't use.

Eliminating the importation of a few thousand 2-stroke motors every year will do nothing for the environment.

David Dewhurst

Guys,
The EPA ruling bans the sale of new two-strokes for any any use including competition. There will be a lot of old CR125 and YZ125 motors around but get used to the idea of YZF250 four-strokes. That is the future whether you like it or not. And having ridden a YZF250 and 400 I'm really looking forward to the future. They rev like a two-stroke and have enough torque to burn the Bridgestones off your kart.

David Dewhurst, Anderson Karts USA

Erik Frank

quote:
Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
(snip) I'm really looking forward to the future. They rev like a two-stroke and have enough torque to burn the Bridgestones off your kart.

David Dewhurst, Anderson Karts USA

David,

I agree with you that four strokes may have lots of torque, and have come a long way in terms of specific power output (horsepower per liter), however....

I'm not looking forward to the re-build costs!!! I can handle the occasional ring and piston....but not a cam belt, camshafts, valve springs, retainers, 3-angle valve job of the week, oh and while you're here try this set of cams...., fancy connecting rods, fuel injection computer programming, etc. etc. Oh, and if I manage to blow one up because I've pushed the tuning too far (easy to do in the heat of competition, no?) I'm potentially out a lot of money! Gone are the days of etching out a cylinder and slapping in a new piston!

Plus, are the karting orgs prepared to support tech inspection? All you have to do is look at the Briggs classes to figure out that competitive four stroke racing gets spendy in a hurry. Yes, I know that many orgs routinley inspect the Briggs engines after races, but if you look at any rule book, a large percentage of the printed matter is dedicated towards 4 stroke engine regs.

There is a simplistic beauty about karting. It's racing in the purest form. To me, part of that simpicity is centered around the two stroke engine. When the two stroke goes away, part of karting does, too. Personally, I'll resist changing to four strokes for as long as possible.

-erik

P.S. A TZ-250 on an Anderson chassis has NO problem dissecting those tires, either!