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Michael Polizzi
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
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Howie Idelson
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1337
Location: United States, California, Pacific Palisades
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 Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 12:16 am Post subject: |
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All those guys in the masters class? wow!
I think it's gonna be cool to watch the first turn when a pack of old guys driving 400 pound plus karts, with only rear brakes and hard tires, all chrging for the same piece of realestate. It's gonna be swell!
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Howie Idelson
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Michael Polizzi
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1565
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Jim Cassi
Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 796
Location: United States, minnesota,
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 4:20 am Post subject: |
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well i'm going to put a passenger seat in my kart to make weight....
now.. i just need a brave co-pilot 
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Mike Walpole
Joined: 28 Jul 2001
Posts: 187
Location: United States, Ohio, Dayton
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 6:07 am Post subject: |
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I wish I knew how you guys are figuring a 240lb driver can run TaG Masters without adding any weight? I have a Birel R932 100cc and a Birel CR-32V setup for 100cc (Perfect TaG kart BTW) and at 220 lbs I am at 370# for can and 380# for pipe. We have weighed the Leopard package here and it's about 15# heavier than a Yamaha pipe kart. That would put me at 395 - 400 with a Leopard.
These are karts with pre-2003 body work. The 2003-2007 body work adds about 8# to a Birel. Based on these figures and my karts, I would need to weigh 210 to run a Leopard in Masters on a kart with new bodywork. FWIW, 200# is about as low as I am going to get. (Based off body fat analysis, height and age constraints.)  At 220 and a kart with 2003 bodywork, I will need an Italsystem to be hit minimum weight.  Seriously, IMHO, 210#-220# is the max weight any karting classes should cater to.
Back in the day, when a kart and engine package weighed 100-110#, we ran rocks (Bluestreaks and Carlisles) for tires, the weights were 265 for light and 325 for heavy. Basically, you could weigh 220, run heavy competitively and be within 10# of making weight. I see an increasing trend in karting where the karts get heavier, the minimum weights don't change to reflect this and it keeps getting harder for the big guys to make weight. Not everyone can be 5'8" and 145#. |
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Chaz Clover
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 879
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:29 am Post subject: |
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| Mike Walpole wrote: | | I wish I knew how you guys are figuring a 240lb driver can run TaG Masters without adding any weight? |
Me too, unless mathemetics in their universe is as different as the color of their sky. My gold Firefox 100 (32mm chassis) with a Leopard kit on it, came in at about 180 pounds with 2/3 of a tank of fuel. To make minimum weight in that kart you'd want to come in at 210#. That's quite a ways from 240.
The braking issue isn't as serious as many have suggested either. I drove that Firefox (rear brakes only) and never once ran out of brakes - even when low on fluid. Weighed in a 213# Having fronts on a kart that fast and that heavy would be nice, but they aren't strictly necessary.
It seems like every time a class weight issue comes up, especially in the so-called masters classes, the oponents of the heavier weights always suggest that the those who can make weight are "fat", and imply these so-called "fat" people are unworthy of consideration in the rules because they are "fat". They are also of the misinformed opinion that these so-called "fat" people can shed "excess" weight about as easily as these kind-hearted souls came up with the idea. And furthermore these "fat" people should rush to loose tyhat weight so their more fortunate, and much lighter fellow competitors don't have to put a pile of lead on their precious karts and strain themselves at the track.
What they are really saying is:
Fat People are bad.
Fat People are lazy.
Fat People deserve no place in competetive kart sport.
Rules shouldn't be made to accomodate Fat People.
The truth is that these JERKs haven't a freakin clue. They are narrow minded, bigoted, mean-pirited, soulless, base creatures who deserve nothing but my utter contempt. I am so glad I'll never have to experience the extreme discomfort caused by having to occupy the same race track with any of you.
Drop Dead.
</c>
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Chaz Clover
http://www.kartmonster.com
"Prior Diripe, Diende Incende" |
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Chaz Clover wrote: | | Mike Walpole wrote: | | I wish I knew how you guys are figuring a 240lb driver can run TaG Masters without adding any weight? |
Me too, unless mathemetics in their universe is as different as the color of their sky. My gold Firefox 100 (32mm chassis) with a Leopard kit on it, came in at about 180 pounds with 2/3 of a tank of fuel. To make minimum weight in that kart you'd want to come in at 210#. That's quite a ways from 240. |
Chaz, our chassis come in closer to 165-170. The maximum Tag weight is
405. 405 - 165 is 240. Even your chassis works out to be 225. With
your chassis and a 240 driver, you're still only 4% over the max
weight. Not that big of a deal, especially when you consider that the
motors at the top of the spectrum (Italsistem et al) all have better
power to weight ratios than the stuff at the bottom (Leopard, Rotax).
| Chaz Clover wrote: |
It seems like every time a class weight issue comes up, especially in the so-called masters classes, the oponents of the heavier weights always suggest that the those who can make weight are "fat", and imply these so-called "fat" people are unworthy of consideration in the rules because they are "fat". They are also of the misinformed opinion that these so-called "fat" people can shed "excess" weight about as easily as these kind-hearted souls came up with the idea. And furthermore these "fat" people should rush to loose tyhat weight so their more fortunate, and much lighter fellow competitors don't have to put a pile of lead on their precious karts and strain themselves at the track.
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You're right about that, and I'm personally sorry for having stooped
to that sort of stuff. At the same time, I think it's probably not all that
hard to understand that there is some frustration involved when the
weights get set to the level they are at. To me, it's not really about
the big people being fat or thin (I myself could stand to loose some
at this point). The lame part is that the bias is set so high, that we're
statistically unlikely to encounter the type of drivers who are going to
benefit. I'm sure it's possible, but I just don't expect that they're
are going to be lots of #240 drivers. At the same time, you are
going to see drivers will not add #50 to #80 pounds of lead to a kart.
I know I won't.
If we had know it was going to go this way, I would have asked Tag
to dyno the HPV. At 320 pounds (a weight I can make), I'll bet it's
got a chance against 390 tags. And I could have saved the $2k for
the leopard. |
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Michael Polizzi
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 1565
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: |
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I will agree that 240 is a size that not many drivers are at, But just like the G2 class of a few years ago How do you know???? They only gave it 1 year to develop. That is hardly time for the word to get out that there IS a place for that large of a driver to race, not to mention that amount of time needed to decide if you want to, then sell the quads,boats snowmobile or whatever to make room in the budget. Then get equipment ready to race.
Just like we all b$tch about rules changes and there effect every YEAR. Rules need to be written AND LEFT ALONE!!!!!!!!
Make the rules or the class and give it TIME to develop!!!
Ok I'm done, time to hit the gym and loose the Winter layers
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KartRaiser.com - The Original Mobile winch powered kart lift - New design! |
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Rob Martin
Joined: 26 Jul 2001
Posts: 616
Location: United States, California, Placentia
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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As I've said before, you can't pick a weight that will please everyone.
What is a good percentage to shoot for?
50%?
60%?
70%?
80%?
Remember that if you pick a driver weight that is the mean average of all racers interested in the class, you will only satisfy 50% of the drivers. The other 50% of the drivers will all be over-weight for the class and therefore at a disadvantage.
I believe that any reasonable ideal driver weight selection should satisfy at least 70% of the drivers for the class. This means that at least 70% of the drivers should fall at or below the calculated ideal driver weight for the class.
For those complaining about adding weight, get some real race data to back up the complaints.
I don't feel sorry for anyone having to add weight.
The only real argument against adding weight is safety. All the other arguments boil down to convenience and performance.
While I may also agree that front and rear brakes add to the overall safety of the package, I don't agree that an extra 20-30lbs mandates any additional braking power. The velocity will always play a much greater role than the overall mass of the kart. The velocity value is squared in the energy calculations, the mass is not.
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Joseph,
Please explain your weight claims.
Does your chassis weight 165 or 170?
How much fuel?
Drivers Gear included?
Gauge package?
What chassis (brand, model, size primary tubing)?
Torsion bars in/out?
4th rail in/out?
Old / New bodywork?
Oil / coolant in motor?
Tire mounted?
All of these factors obviously effect the overall package weight and may scew the numbers if reported in differing fashions.
Most of my TAG and Rotax packages have come in over 175lbs (Trackmagic dragon,half fuel, oil, coolant, mychron3, no safety gear, ribtect seat) even when mounted on smaller tubed frames.
Certainly a 32mm chassis with new bodywork will come in at least 10lbs heavier. |
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Chaz Clover
Joined: 18 Jul 2001
Posts: 879
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The only real argument against adding weight is safety. All the other arguments boil down to convenience and performance. |
Safety isn't much of an argument either. Case in point: a kart, sans weight rolled over totally crushing my right clavical, and severly bruising ribs on my right side. Accident was in October of '03. Clavical has yet to heal fully. Damn near killed me and the kart weighs a paltry 180#. Point being made: It doesn't matter how much weight youre carrying or not carrying. The kart lands on you, you're gonna get hurt. You want safety? Demand karts with rollover protection.
Performance in a race is relative. A heavier kart may perform below that of a lighter kart, but in a class where weights are roughly equal, performance is, or should be roughly equal to others in the class.
That leaves convenience. Probably the only gripe with any sort of merit and not much in any case. I have very little sympathy for this argument.
</c>
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james bremner
Joined: 17 Jun 2002
Posts: 696
Location: United States, California,
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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my rotax/intrepid has 28#'s bolted on to get it up to 400#'s I'm 6'1" x 192
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Axel Korn
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 415
Location: United States, California, San Diego
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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Well Chaz, you're lucky and I.m glad you're okay. If it had been my kart with the extra 59 lbs I have to add to make the new TaG weight, you may have not been so lucky, because it would have been 239lbs. 
In terms of brakes - I guess that depends on the level of your driving. I have had some challenges with brakes and the new weight and speed of the TaG. I hear from several shops/dealers, that they are also experiencing similar issues.
I read through all the posts again under this thread. Unless I missed it, I don't believe anyone used the word "fat" to describe a driver and certainly no-one said anything about "fat and unworthy of consideration....". I'm not sure what you are talking about. |
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Bob Francis
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 884
Location: United States, Oregon, Salem
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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Axel i think they were refering to an earlier thread on Tag weights. remember thats when all the big guys thought the weights were to low and that there was no way they should be dropped. now they get heavier weights and are still complaining its really hard to please these guys.
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tim finley
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 241
Location: United States, Arizona,
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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Rob,
Your numbers fall in line with mine for the weight of a chassis. I have posted this information in another thread but will duplicate it here.
2003 KGB Kart 30/32, 4 rail, outside rails/inside rails, extra large deep seat, Micron 3, old style body work, 50mm axle, all billet componets, front and rear brembo brakes, leopard engine, after market 2 inch thick aluminum radiator, mag wheels, that should do it - weight 195 lbs with a half tank of fuel. Oh, I have a larger front nose for long track racing.
Me - 190 lbs
gear - 5 lbs
Okay, this is 390 lbs without any weight guys and gals.
So I know the front brakes are worth about 10 lbs, so for sprint racing (remove the front brakes, although I would prefer to race with them for saftey sake) I would weigh in at 380 lbs. If someone weighs 200 lbs they would be over weight by 20 with new standards, 30 for the skusa weights. A good portion of the population weights 180+ so the weights need to be were they are : ie leopard at 370 and 390. I feel 360 is to light.
Just my two cents worth.
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Rob Martin wrote: |
Most of my TAG and Rotax packages have come in over 175lbs (Trackmagic dragon,half fuel, oil, coolant, mychron3, no safety gear, ribtect seat) even when mounted on smaller tubed frames.
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Okay, well by my calculation 405 - 175 is 230. That's for your kart,
your numbers. Now, do you really think that it's realistic to say that
230 is necessary to accomodate your 70%? In other words, 3 out of
10 karters are more than 230 pounds? |
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