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Jon Andrews
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 256
Location: United States, Ohio,
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 Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: Italsistem TAG Owners Get the Shaft From SKUSA |
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| Quote: | From SKSUA's 2004 rulebook re: TAG weights...
.................Jnr........Snr........Mstrs
Rotax........xxx......355lbs.....370lbs
BM JAG.....320lbs...360lbs.....375lbs
Leopard....320lbs...360lbs.....375lbs
EasyKart...xxx.......360lbs.....375lbs
Comer......320lbs...375lbs.....375lbs
Biland.......320lbs...375lbs.....390lbs
Sonik........320lbs...375lbs.....390lbs
Italsistem..xxx.......375lbs.....390lbs*
*engine is allowed with the 28H/P ignition module only. |
OK, so what gives with the Italsistem now having to run with an analogue ignition (28HP) and 15lbs lighter?  . Obviously SKUSA doesn't have the brain cells to figure out the reason the Italsistem was attractive to many people was the fact the IT RAN AT A HIGHER WEIGHT TO ALL THE OTHER ENGINES. Hello!! the fact that it now has to run at 375lb means the is NO ADVANTAGE for the larger guy to look at running this engine.
Another significant issue with this short sighted decision is that for the Ital to be competitive in the 28HP configuration means you have to turn it to 17,500rpm! CRAZY. The whole point of TAG is to keep costs down. Running the engine like this is assinine. If the big gripe is that a 31hp motor is not close enough in performance characteristics to the other engeins, surely the Biland had got to go as well. It has a vastly different power delivery curve yet that's ok, wierd...
Yes, I am a current Italsistem owner. I haven't even mentioned that all the existing Ital owners now have to shell out another $150-200 for new ignition and throw the other one in the trash.
Come on SKUSA!, get you head out of your rear and think about the end users.
0.02c.
Jon.
p.s.
e-mails sent to SKSUSA! and TAGUSA!....waiting for an explanation.
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Brad Linkus
Joined: 21 Aug 2001
Posts: 386
Location: United States, Colorado, Dacono
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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Jon
Were you there for the testing? Do you know the dyno results? How can you make any statements without knowing how the weights were determined. I was there and I know you do not have a clue. There was not one engine that was over 27hp. How much weight can you add to make up 5 hp? What do you know about a Biland, I did not see you there for the testing. The whole reason for the evaluation was to determine just what power each engine has and fix a weight to make it as close as possible, 32hp is not in the ball park. |
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Ronald Leornard
Joined: 12 Feb 2004
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:28 pm Post subject: skusa weights |
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| John, How much do you weigh. I way around 180lbs and will still have to add about 25 lbs to my kart to make the 375 weight. I don't know how big you are but I doubt that you weigh more than 210lbs. |
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John Denman
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 4846
Location: United States, Texas, McKinney
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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Jon Andrews,
Remember 6 months ago when you ignored my requests for information on the Italsis? I do, and still have the emails.
When I first contacted Achille in December 2001 about the Italsis ML47 that was then in development he gave me information that led me to believe it was coming out with a digital ignition with a 36 mm carb. Further correspondence continued to indicate that the intended design would produce a 44KW motor (33HP).
We wrote the original standards. If you didn't want to take me seriously 6 months ago, that's your choice. If you think this is where you need to voice your TAG rules concerns, thats fine too.
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Michael Franck
Joined: 24 Nov 2001
Posts: 263
Location: United States, Illinois, Oswego
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| Posted: Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Was the Vortex ROK not included in the testing? Is it going to be included in TAG USA? |
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Jon Andrews
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 256
Location: United States, Ohio,
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| John Denman wrote: | Jon Andrews,
Remember 6 months ago when you ignored my requests for information on the Italsis? I do, and still have the emails.
When I first contacted Achille in December 2001 about the Italsis ML47 that was then in development he gave me information that led me to believe it was coming out with a digital ignition with a 36 mm carb. Further correspondence continued to indicate that the intended design would produce a 44KW motor (33HP).
We wrote the original standards. If you didn't want to take me seriously 6 months ago, that's your choice. If you think this is where you need to voice your TAG rules concerns, thats fine too. |
John,
Since when was it my responsibility to provide you with specifications on an engine? I am just a consumer, racer NOT THE IMPORTER OR MANUFACTURER. If you were in direct communication with Achille, why ask me?
In 2003 when Tom Argy included the Italsistem in the TAGUSA! rules it was listed, and always was listed at 31HP NOT 33HP. More importantly the carb and ignition specs were set at day one at 24mm/digital ignition for the US market.
OK, fair point, I wasn't at the testing. So please enlighten us all on how the testing was done and conclusions drawn on the weight breaks. More specific to me I would like to know the power output of each engine in relation to the Italsistem with the 24mm/dig ignition. Was an '03 spec Ital tested at 31hp and now magically in '04 it is now 33hp?
You were involved in the original testing in '03, and at that time must have concluded that the Italsistem with the digital ignition should run at 390lb to be 'fair'. How is then that 1 year later the same spec carb/clutch cannot be correctly 'handicapped' by 15lb of weight?
All I am looking for is a definite answer as to why 31hp/digital ignition/24mm/'03 spec engine has been excluded from TAGUSA!/SKUSA now that Tom Argy is not directly involved in the rule making.
Jon.
P.S I do not work for, have never worked for and have no commercial interest in Italsistem or any US distributor/importer.
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Jim Cassi
Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 796
Location: United States, minnesota,
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 4:24 am Post subject: |
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Brad..u said u was there for the testing..?..ok...do u remember what the torque was on the motors.?
i would be interested to see how they matched up.. i think that would clear up alot of questions people have
Example...Rotax...27 hps @ 14,000 rpm
with 14 footpounds of torque @ 12,500 rpm
torque band starting at 6,800 rpm to 12,500 rpm.
some print outs would be sweet....and who did the testing.?
the figures above, i made up...i have no idea what the Rotax produces..it's just an example... so i don't want people freaking out. 
sorry about the add on...but i just noticed Easy kart was added to the list.
why so much weight.?...don't they run them at 335 lbs.?... r they realy that quick.?
i also seen in the SKUSA rules state , fuel is.VP 98 and VP castor lube..
but the Rotax manual sez to use synthetic... VP makes a synthetic.. that we used for the RMAX nats... will we be able to use it.?...and what about the ratio of the mix.?... different motors take different ratio's...don't they.?
how will they monitor 7 different mixes?....as i remember... they didn't come close to it at the last Rock Island GP... it turn out to be a cluster ........ one drum of fuel was ok... the rest was way off..
so...i would just like to prepare myself, if i attend one of the events...
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Gary Kannegiesser
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 121
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:00 am Post subject: |
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Weight is not going to make TAG motor packages equal.
A large person will be at a disadvantage.
I as a small person has to add a ton of weight to make weight.
What if all 125 shifter were in the same class equaled by weight?
The same with all four cycle.
Good luck |
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Greg Wright
Joined: 25 Oct 2001
Posts: 2497
Location: United States, Indiana, Clermont
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Michael Frank, The Vortex Rok was inadvertantly left off the list.
Yes it is approved and the weights are; Rok Jr 320 lb, Rok Sr. 375 lb, Rok Masters 390 lb.
Greg Wright
Rapid Racing Inc.
TAG USA Technical Liaison
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Rapid Racing Inc.
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I AM INDY!!
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John Denman
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 4846
Location: United States, Texas, McKinney
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| Jon Andrews wrote: |
John,
Since when was it my responsibility to provide you with specifications on an engine? I am just a consumer, racer NOT THE IMPORTER OR MANUFACTURER. If you were in direct communication with Achille, why ask me?
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My apologies Jon.
For some reason I had your name and emails filed in the Italsis/Retailer folder, and worse when I replied was referring to a group of emails that were just below your name. Maintaining the data among the all those involved with TAG has been an enormous challenge itself. Perhaps you can imagine why that is.
Now that the dust has settled from the TAGUSA/SKUSA "reconstruction" it's pretty much a relief for me, but the I have to admit the last 3 months has been pretty hectic after losing Tom Argy.
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Bruce Woodrow
Joined: 14 Feb 2002
Posts: 472
Location: China, not USA, Nanjing
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Another significant issue with this short sighted decision is that for the Ital to be competitive in the 28HP configuration means you have to turn it to 17,500rpm! CRAZY. |
Who made the short sighted decision here? Who is coming off as crazy?!? I think a good look in the mirror is required.
Bruce |
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Jon Andrews
Joined: 25 Jul 2001
Posts: 256
Location: United States, Ohio,
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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This is NOT a thread to discuss if overall TAG weights are too high. It is to address the issue of understanding the TAG engine testing process and specifically the exclusion of the Italsistem 31hp spec. engine from the senior TAG class. Please see the other threads to discuss weight. Thank you.
| Bruce Woodrow wrote: | Re: 17,500rpmWho made the short sighted decision here? Who is coming off as crazy?!? I think a good look in the mirror is required.
Bruce |
Bruce;
People purchased the Italsistem including me last year in the 31hp/390lb configuration last year on the understanding that it was legal in TAG Snr. The engine has excellent longevity when turned up to 15,500 - 16,000rpm. My point is that now that only the 28hp/375lb config. is the only one legal in Snr, the existing and any new customers have to put up with a greatly increased maintenance cost because to be competitive the engine needs to rev to 17,000+ rpm. I don't think the I need to look in any mirror, but just like any other topic, you are entitled to your opinion.
John,
Apology accepted. I have had a lot of email correspondence with TAG people regarding the Italsistem, but I must admit I was thinking hard if I had had any contact specifically with you.  It's at these times of rule setting the Tom Argy's visionary qualities show themselves as sorely missed.
| Jim cassi wrote: | Brad..u said u was there for the testing..?..ok...do u remember what the torque was on the motors.?
I would be interested to see how they matched up.. i think that would clear up alot of questions people have
Example...Rotax...27 hps @ 14,000 rpm
with 14 footpounds of torque @ 12,500 rpm
torque band starting at 6,800 rpm to 12,500 rpm.
some print outs would be sweet....and who did the testing.?
The figures above, i made up...i have no idea what the Rotax produces..it's just an example... so i don't want people freaking out. |
Jim,
I think you are spot on with your suggestion. As I stated in my previous posts, all I am looking for is an explanation of the how the tests were done, what the results from the test were, and what the logic was behind the weight vs results is.
Judging from the SKUSA webpage it appears as though a rolling-road dyno was used to measure the rear-wheel horsepower of each of the engines. Therefore there must have been some procedure laid out as to how to test. Example; get the engine up to temp, ensure that the carb is set to the optimum and then do a dyno pull. Simple eh? Well yes and no. How many pulls were done? Was the engine cooled to a specific temperature after being put under load before the next pull? Were multiple pulls done back-to-back? Was the average used or the highest results? I could go on and on speculating. Instead why doensn't Dave Larson or Marty Casey just spell it out for us all to see?
My suspicion is that a 'baseline control' was set that a particular wheel horsepower (whp) would run at a set weight and then adjustments made up or down based on how the other engines compared.
Note: I DID NOT ATTEND THE TESTING THIS IS A SPECULATIVE EXAMPLE ONLY
Engine......Mfr HP.....WHP.....Weight
Leopard.....28...........26.........360* note engine serves as 'control'
Rotax........28...........25.5.......355
EasyKart...27............26.........360
BMJag.......28............26.........360
Comer......28............27.5......375
Biland.......28............27.5......375
Sonik........27...........27.5.......375
ROK..........29...........27.5.......375
Italsistem..28...........27.5.......375* analogue ignition
Italsistem..31...........29.5.......390* digital ignition
** Manufacturer's quoted Hp from my memory so there may be an error or two 
I would hope that some data matrix like this was constructed at the conclusion of the dyno testing. My guess is that some correlation of 1whp = 10lb was applied but I have no way of verifying it.
$64,000,000 question that SKUSA, TAGUSA, Brad Linkus or anyone else at the testing has failed to respond to;
If 20lb of weight can compenate for a difference in performance between the Rotax and the Comer/Biland/Sonik/ROK (355lb vs. 375lb), why can't 15lb in weight compensate for the difference between the Comer/Biland/Sonik/ROK and the 31hp Italsistem (375lb vs 390lb)?
I have e-mailed both Marty and Dave and so far only received a one line response from SKSUA indicating that the 31hp digital ignition version Italsistem will be legal in the masters class only. So why only in the masters class? Does weight magically compensate for performance if the driver is over 35 in age. This doesn't make sense.
This whole testing lark is a black box. Waiting for someone to enlighten us all.......
Jon.
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Bob Francis
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 884
Location: United States, Oregon, Salem
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| Posted: Wed Feb 18, 2004 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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Jon i really don't want to address weights either. what has happened in my opinion is that the names should be changed. instead of senior and masters there should be light and heavy. i know its just terminology but it would really simplify things. then the different HP stuff could be designated to weights more equally.
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Jim Cassi
Joined: 12 Feb 2002
Posts: 796
Location: United States, minnesota,
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 5:26 am Post subject: |
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I would just like to see the results...as would everybody..
it's not that big of a request is it.?...i don't think we are asking...who shot Kennedy.?
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joseph hollinger
Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9469
Location: United States, California, san francisco
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| Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| Jim cassi wrote: | I would just like to see the results...as would everybody..
it's not that big of a request is it.?...i don't think we are asking...who shot Kennedy.? |
Sure. On the other hand, it's fairly easy to understand why you
might not want to tell people how the testing was done. After all,
look at all the bitching going on right now. If you let people
complain about the entire methodology, it might never stop.
Maybe it's time to stop bitching and start racing. It won't take long
to see if the current weights are unfair. |
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