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Which will be the motor to have?
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joseph hollinger



Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance Keelan wrote:

I'm dissapointed in your choice of words about newbies being a dime a dozen. I guess the phrase "That's the way we've always done things" is quite familiar to you as well.


Well then, be disappointed. I, in literal terms, indicated that I'm
willing to discuss the merits of the issue. You, on the other hand,
are the one who is somehow infected with the notion that your
opinion should be given greater credence simply because you
haven't been involved in karting. Get the irony?

The sealed motor concept isn't new. It's been around racing (in
various forms) for a long time. Nor is tag isn't the "way we've
always done things." The fact is that lots of the devices that have
been invented to legislate fairness are really unpopular. Claiming
rules are a great example. Motor sealing is another example
(although to a lesser extent). Those concepts have been rejected
by Tag so there's no real point in worrying about it now. Those of
us who don't like seals have what appears to be a promising series,
those who do have rotax. We'll all get to see which turns out better.
Sounds like evolution at its best to me.
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Chad Stapleton



Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 4403

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance Keelan wrote:
What's next classes such as shifters with starters, ICA with starters, ICC with starters, Yamaha 4-can with starters and blue wheels!
.


Well, with the exception of the ICA with a starter, all the other's already exist ! (maybe not with blue wheels tho')
Plus a few others with starters that you overlooked ! Wink
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"Those of you who think you know everything are annoying to those of us who do !!"
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Bob Francis



Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 884
Location: United States, Oregon, Salem

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lets change this discussion a little. just for the sake of argument, if after all the test results are out what happens if say there is only maybe 1 or 1.5 HP difference across the board? now the way I see it if you have a Rotax and you want to keep the seal then your hands are tied except for jetting, if you have a different package then there might be a little more creativity allowed. but as I think Andy S. has stated in another forum most of the TAG racers are still working on their jetting, chasis and driving skills. so they probably don't have the expertise to do the subtle motor work that would be still legal. if we take that as probable then the motor shops will be making some money blueprinting TAG motors and thats usually not cheap. so then is it possible that a sealed Rotax with the dealer only rebuilds could be significantly cheaper in the long run? now i know you can do top ends without the seal on other TAg motors but on and average that's a once maybe twice a season expense. so in choosing a motor for TAG is it that important to be able to work on it yourself? and take the chance of a miss-measurment and a possible DQ if you do well. just some thoughts.
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Bob Ogden



Joined: 22 Jul 2002
Posts: 3446
Location: United States, California, Grass Valley

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lance,
I believe that one of the most contentious things about TaG is that it's not the way it's always been done. I think that's the problem the 20 year vets are having. Even some of the guys on this thread run Leopard, but don't want Sonik or Ital or Rok in their sandbox.
I first heard about Rotax my first year, and thought it was a great thing, but never saw more than one or two a week in Northern Cal so that was out. After a long decision making process between shifters and TaG, I bought a Leopard package.
I truly think the whole concept of going out against a group of 20 racers in close but not identical packages is exciting, and I can't wait to get started.
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joseph hollinger



Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Francis wrote:
if we take that as probable then the motor shops will be making some money blueprinting TAG motors and thats usually not cheap.


It's worth mentioning that 'blueprinting' may or may not be an advantage.
Certainly, with HPV, Horstman made a big deal when their box stock motors
out-qualified blueprinted motors. So that sort of thing is not out of the
question. As the rules are written now, SKUSA disallows internal
modifications of any kind. If the motors are well built to begin with,
blueprinting may be a waste.
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Bob Francis



Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 884
Location: United States, Oregon, Salem

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

its not just the concept of blueprinting or its percieved advantages its more of the idea of, if TAGS can be maintained or optimized does that lend itself to possble dq's for sloppy work by a novice? and will it turn into an HPV type envirerment were motor builders become a necessity to achieve success? I'm not trying to lobby for the Rotax seal just trying to get an idea of what direction people either want or expect this TAG class to end up at. in an combined motor class people need to be aware of what can happen down the road aways and what steps they want to take to really keep the playing field as equal as possible.
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joseph hollinger



Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Francis wrote:
its not just the concept of blueprinting or its percieved advantages its more of the idea of, if TAGS can be maintained or optimized does that lend itself to possble dq's for sloppy work by a novice? and will it turn into an HPV type envirerment were motor builders become a necessity to achieve success? I'm not trying to lobby for the Rotax seal just trying to get an idea of what direction people either want or expect this TAG class to end up at. in an combined motor class people need to be aware of what can happen down the road aways and what steps they want to take to really keep the playing field as equal as possible.


I wasn't aware that anyone felt that way about HPV. We've ran HPV for
several years with stock engines done by a local guy. Had them
blueprinted by what is (at least arguably) the best people on the
west coast. Never noticed the difference.
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joseph hollinger



Joined: 12 Sep 2002
Posts: 9475
Location: United States, California, san francisco

PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2004 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joseph hollinger wrote:
Bob Francis wrote:
its not just the concept of blueprinting or its percieved advantages its more of the idea of, if TAGS can be maintained or optimized does that lend itself to possble dq's for sloppy work by a novice? and will it turn into an HPV type envirerment were motor builders become a necessity to achieve success? I'm not trying to lobby for the Rotax seal just trying to get an idea of what direction people either want or expect this TAG class to end up at. in an combined motor class people need to be aware of what can happen down the road aways and what steps they want to take to really keep the playing field as equal as possible.


I wasn't aware that anyone felt that way about HPV. We've ran HPV for
several years with stock engines done by a local guy. Had them
blueprinted by what is (at least arguably) the best people on the
west coast. Never noticed the difference.


BTW: those motors are for sale Smile
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Axel Korn



Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 415
Location: United States, California, San Diego

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob Ogden wrote:
Lance,
I truly think the whole concept of going out against a group of 20 racers in close but not identical packages is exciting


Conceptually, I think it will present some advanced driving challenges and the good drivers will ultimately prevail. Driving strategy and planning will be key.

eg. HPV, Rotax, TaG - when you lap behind a slower shifter, it is somewhat frustrating, because potentially, you could pass the slow guy into the corner. However, the line taken by the shifter is such, that you have to brake and follow. Once on the straight, because of hp, he drives away until the next turn, where the same scenario happens. Ultimately, the only way to get in front, is by observing his line, planning and making a calculated pass.

This may be a similar scenario that we will face in TaG with the different power delivered by different motors. Some more bottom, some more top. Irrelevant of the motor, the better drivers will drive to the front.
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Lance Keelan



Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 180
Location: United States, New York, Long Island

PostPosted: Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well then, be disappointed. I, in literal terms, indicated that I'm
willing to discuss the merits of the issue. You, on the other hand,
are the one who is somehow infected with the notion that your
opinion should be given greater credence simply because you
haven't been involved in karting. Get the irony?

I would never suggest my opinion be given more weight than anybody elses. My opinion is simply that...my opinion.

I was dissapointed that it seemed you were rejecting my comments based on the fact I am new to karting. It didn't reflect the welcoming attitude of the karting world that everybody speaks so highly of.
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